Why is Ethanol such a polarizing topic?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I'm running E20(~22%) Ethanol again. MPG is within .33 of the baseline tank of Regular. It's hard to beat that consistency. This next fillup will be my 5th tank splash blending E85.

I tried E20 once and got one of my best tanks, but I am definitely itching to fill a jug with E85 and do long term testing/dyno runs.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by radioranger

if the price of fuel goes up the poor stay closer to the cities

I don't think this is always the case... perhaps sometimes , but not always.

Areas closer to cities almost always have a higher cost of living.

Sometimes the poor stay living further away ... or move further away ... they can't afford to live in the city ... and they can't afford the cost to commute long distances , pay for parking , etc.

The Minimum wage earner makes the same $ each year no matter where they live of what their cost of living ... they have a better standard of living when they have that same $income in a lower cost of living location... ie usually that means further away from cities.

Originally Posted by radioranger

some people want that,

I agree many want to live closer to the city for access to all the things the city has to offer ... this desire for what they want sometimes causes them to eat the higher cost of living , for those desires... but if we are talking about the poor the minimum wage income is a set bottom end no matter what the areas cost of living is.

[radioranger]

dont forget the 2 bucks for coffee going to work every day , otherwise pretty accurate math.

[freebeard]

Read it.

Reaching limits of a finite world is a subject that does not easily fit into any one subject area, so the subject tends to be missed by researchers concentrating on one field of study.

The closest fit came in the analysis The Limits to Growth (Donella Meadows et al, Universe books, 1972).

Gail Tverberg needs to discover Buckminster Fuller. Really.

Use of fossil fuels did not grow by themselves. Their use was facilitated by the development of improved technology, which provided the vehicle for their use. Increased debt also facilitated fossil fuel use, because it allowed potential buyers to afford the new products being developed, and provided companies doing energy extraction funds for their work.

Even when oil price drops, this is not necessarily a good sign. It may mean that some oil extraction companies will no longer be able to afford to add new wells, because production will not be sufficiently profitable at the new lower price. It may also mean that some oil exporting nations will not be able to get enough tax revenue from oil operations to fund programs (food subsidies, for example) that prevent revolt.

So debt and high extraction costs are what stand between us and disaster?

As a counterpoint I would suggest:
Nitrogen fixing bacteria will enable all plants to get nitrogen without fertilizer
What would it do to Gail's actuarial tables if sourcing, transporting, and remediation of fertilizer use was off the table?

What if 3x expensive window glass would eliminate heaters, coolers and ducting full of microbes?

I welcome high energy prices (he says) because people need some impetus to change their low-down ways.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by radioranger

dont forget the 2 bucks for coffee going to work every day , otherwise pretty accurate math.

You should buy a coffee pot ... As low as about ~$0.05 per cup of black coffee including the water and the electricity ... that would reduce the $730 per year just for a morning cup of coffee ... down to about ~$19 per year.

[radioranger]

Well I switched to tea and a thermos myself after years of the coffee stuf, but lots of us old guys get our only socializing at the cumberland farms, LOL, plus the last pit stop before the highway. If they charged more than a buck i wouldnt stop at all.

[RedDevil]

Maybe there is a market for Starcents?

[gone-ot]

...what process can turn coffee grounds into ethanol? Hello, Starbucks!

[freebeard]

Cool Planet's Carbon Negative Fuel Cycle (really a virtuous topsoil spiral, but whatevs)

Maybe not ethanol—this produces 100 octane gas-o-line.

Thermal Depolymerization Plastic recycling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not just for plastics anymore. You can use depolymerization on the sludge they dredge out of harbors.

[RedDevil]

No need to depolymerize what's not polymerized in the first place.

Belgian and British scientists have created a genetically modified plant variation that contains much less lignin than usual.
Lignin is a component of wood that gives it its strength, along with cellulose.
A lot of energy is required to break down lignin, so converting woodlike plant material to biofuel is relatively inefficient and expensive.

They discovered that the enzyme Caffeoyl (!) Shikimate Esterase (CSE) is responsible for the production of lignin in a plant cell. By suppressing this enzyme in the thale cress (Arabidopsis thalania) they reduced the lignin content by 36%; the plant does contain 4 times as much glucose than before, which can be harvested easily by drying and processing the plant, even without heating.
Despite the lower lignin content the plants are not so weak that they sag or collapse; apparently the lignin makes them a less likely target for predators than glucose would.

They claim this genetic modification can be used for any woodlike plant, so in theory the chaff and other waste material from food crops can be used for ethanol production by this modification; or even be used as a food source themselves.
In fact all kinds of plants could be used to produce glucose foro ethanol and bioplastic etc. much more efficiently; plants that grow under much harder circumstances, etc.
This would relieve the necessity to use food crops for ethanol production.

They published their findings in Science magazine.
This could really be something. I sure hope they get this going.