2023 Toyota Prius - WOW!

[freebeard]

I walked downtown and the Toyota had one of these on the lot: Toyota_BZ4X. Apparently it replaces the RAV4.

It has air curtains that could ingest small mammals.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I walked downtown and the Toyota had one of these on the lot: Toyota_BZ4X. Apparently it replaces the RAV4.

It has air curtains that could ingest small mammals.

People on the Bolt forum are mocking the "weak" first Toyota EV. They could sell unlimited RAV4 Prime for any price they set, but apparently are uninterested.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I walked downtown and the Toyota had one of these on the lot: Toyota_BZ4X. Apparently it replaces the RAV4.

It has air curtains that could ingest small mammals.

I met a guy at a charging station with a BZ4X a couple weeks ago. He really liked his.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

People on the Bolt forum are mocking the "weak" first Toyota EV. They could sell unlimited RAV4 Prime for any price they set, but apparently are uninterested.

I believe Toyota has quadrupled the production capacity for the RAV4 Prime since it first came out. It was much more popular than expected and Toyota is working to catch up with demand. Toyota is also prioritizing the EU market where they have to sell Primes to get their fleet CO2 average down and avoid huge fines.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

I believe Toyota has quadrupled the production capacity for the RAV4 Prime since it first came out. It was much more popular than expected and Toyota is working to catch up with demand. Toyota is also prioritizing the EU market where they have to sell Primes to get their fleet CO2 average down and avoid huge fines.

I don't know what kind of tards are working at Toyota, and I don't say that lightly, as I am frequently saying that if Toyota isn't doing something, you should be trying to figure out why.

The RAV4 is hugely popular. The specs of the Prime are insane. They should have anticipated the popularity. Not knowing the future of US tax credits, they should have been pushing this vehicle from day 1 of those credits. It could have been a cash cow.

Cancel the stupid EV and quadruple the RAV4 Prime.

I'm one to armchair criticize the company, but has it been a decade now that I've been saying PHEV is where the money AND efficiency are to be found? 16 kWh is the exact right size to maximize the federal tax credit, and it took how long to figure this out?

[Phase]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I walked downtown and the Toyota had one of these on the lot: Toyota_BZ4X. Apparently it replaces the RAV4.

It has air curtains that could ingest small mammals.

I wonder if making my ioniqs air curtains bigger it would reduce drag. Mine are pretty small compared to other cars air curtains or Julian Edgar’s “ edgarwits@

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Cancel the stupid EV and quadruple the RAV4 Prime.

Toyota needs the EV - both in the EU and the USA. 95 Euro per gram CO2 adds up FAST. Both jurisdictions are also reducing the credit companies get from PHEVs. For example CARB only allows 20% of their ZEV requirements to be met with PHEVs.

BTW - While looking up that fact I also noticed that CARB is requiring a mandatory 10 year / 150K battery warrant for EVs instead of allowing manufacturers to set any warranty. For 2025 - 2029 a vehicle must maintain 70% of its original range. In 2030 that jumps to 80%.

CARB EV phase in:

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm one to armchair criticize the company, but has it been a decade now that I've been saying PHEV is where the money AND efficiency are to be found? 16 kWh is the exact right size to maximize the federal tax credit, and it took how long to figure this out?

I'm betting Toyota knows a bit more about the economics than you and I. They are the largest (10.5 million vehicle) AND most profitable full-line automaker for a reason.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

Toyota needs the EV - both in the EU and the USA. 95 Euro per gram CO2 adds up FAST. Both jurisdictions are also reducing the credit companies get from PHEVs. For example CARB only allows 20% of their ZEV requirements to be met with PHEVs.

Proof of nothing except know-nothing bureaucrats make demands based on no information. There'd be way less CO2 emissions if we had 4x more PHEVs than stupid EVs that people don't put many miles on in a year.

BTW - While looking up that fact I also noticed that CARB is requiring a mandatory 10 year / 150K battery warrant for EVs instead of allowing manufacturers to set any warranty. For 2025 - 2029 a vehicle must maintain 70% of its original range. In 2030 that jumps to 80%.

See above about know nothing bureaucrats.

I'm betting Toyota knows a bit more about the economics than you and I. They are the largest (10.5 million vehicle) AND most profitable full-line automaker for a reason.

I did mention my extreme lack of knowledge and zero experience. That said, what's the demand of the RAV4 Prime vs supply? 16 kWh was always the magic number, so why did nobody figure that out? The idiotic subsidy stumbled into a sweet spot of favoring PHEVs, which actually makes sense from a CO2 emission and consumer perspective.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I did mention my extreme lack of knowledge and zero experience. That said, what's the demand of the RAV4 Prime vs supply? 16 kWh was always the magic number, so why did nobody figure that out? The idiotic subsidy stumbled into a sweet spot of favoring PHEVs, which actually makes sense from a CO2 emission and consumer perspective.

What happens to RAV4 Prime sales now that they don't qualify for a tax credit? That is the problem with building a vehicle to a credit that can be fickle - and the old credit was only for 200K vehicles.

Buyers also have to be on board to by PHEVs and the data shows they simply don't understand them. Take the Prius Prime. Even without maximizing the tax credit the Prime was cheaper than the standard hybrid, just the federal credit without even factoring in state or local incentives. And the regular hybrid massively outsold the Prime. There is no logic to that. Even if you never plugged it in the Prime is the better buy.

[Phase]

Originally Posted by JSH

What happens to RAV4 Prime sales now that they don't qualify for a tax credit? That is the problem with building a vehicle to a credit that can be fickle - and the old credit was only for 200K vehicles.

Buyers also have to be on board to by PHEVs and the data shows they simply don't understand them. Take the Prius Prime. Even without maximizing the tax credit the Prime was cheaper than the standard hybrid, just the federal credit without even factoring in state or local incentives. And the regular hybrid massively outsold the Prime. There is no logic to that. Even if you never plugged it in the Prime is the better buy.

Prime got worse gas mileage on road trips though

Hyundai had a hybrid Ioniq, plug in hybrid, and ev. All 3 with the same body style. I got the basic hybrid simply because it got better highway mpg

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Phase

Prime got worse gas mileage on road trips though

Hyundai had a hybrid Ioniq, plug in hybrid, and ev. All 3 with the same body style. I got the basic hybrid simply because it got better highway mpg

Not according to the EPA ratings. The Prime does better both combined and highway even in gas only mode.

In real life would it do better cruising at 75 mph? Maybe. The Prime has a bit more weight to carry but it also has a more powerful motor so it can regen more and feed in more electric torque. It is probably a wash.

The Prime is also more powerful, quicker, stays in EV mode much easier, and the larger battery means that it will last longer with normal hybrid cycling. The Prime can also recapture MUCH more electricity with regen which is very handy if you live in mountainous areas. (That was a big downside to my two 2nd gen Prius - they would fill the battery and stop regen before I was even 1/4 of the way down a grade and then I had to switch over to engine braking mode to keep from burning up the brakes.

Subjectively the Prime was less ugly than the regular Prius.

So pretty much better in every way and Prime was slightly cheaper to buy after factoring in the $2,500 tax credit. Yet the regular Prius outsold the Prime 5:1.

(This is personalized to have 100% highway driving)