2023 Toyota Prius - WOW!

[Isaac Zachary]

One thing to note is that companies like Toyota actually do specify 6-months/5,000-mile oil changes. It's that they always have two schedules, one for cars that do mostly highway miles in warm weather, and another for stop-n-go traffic, winter, towing, and any other type of driving that's harder on the engine than cruising along a highway.

The problem is nobody goes by the actual recommendation. They see the longer oil change interval and go by that regardless of how and where they drive.

And again, even going by yearly oil changes the engine will last what most people consider the life of the vehicle, around 10 to 15 years or around 150,000 to 180,000 miles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJhFAwFv-O0

[hayden55]

Toyota actually retroactively swapped their models to 10k in mid 2010. Thats why the oil maintenance light in my 2010 prius comes on every 5000 miles. Vehicles around like 2010 not the ones from earlier.
But with all of this said... 4 Cylinders in particular really seem to be the problem children. I don't really feel hesitant to do a 7500 mile oil change in my 2uz sequoia with more miles.

[Isaac Zachary]

Interestingly in my owner's manual for the Avalon it specifies either 5,000 or 10,000 mile oil changes depending on how the car is used until 100,000 miles. Then it says to just do 10,000 mile oil changes from there on out.

However, I drive short distances, over mountains, in the winter, I tow with the Avalon, etc. etc. And according to the owner's manual, before 100,000 miles that means I'm supposed to do the 5,000-miles/6-month oil change. That is what is recommended by Toyota. That is what I do. Well, it's no longer what's recommened because after 100,000 miles it goes to every 10,000 miles regardless, and then the mainenance schedule ends at 120,000 miles.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by hayden55

If thats true why did they issue a reduction on oil change intervals? They did it mid warranty for BMW.

What oil change intervals? This is the sum total of maintenance information in a 2022 BMW 330i owner's manual:

Condition Based Service CBS

Principle

Sensors and special algorithms take into account the driving conditions of the vehicle. CBS uses these to provide maintenance recommendations.

The system makes it possible to adapt the amount of maintenance corresponding to your user profile.

General information

Information on service notifications can be displayed on the Control Display.

It is routine for US models to have shorter maintenance intervals than European models. For example my 2005 and 2009 Prius called for oil changes every 5,000 miles in the USA and every 15,000 km in Europe. Same oil specified. This is due to manufacturers knowing that US customers do not follow the factory maintenance schedule. I changed the oil on the US schedule until the warranty expired and then switched to the European schedule.

There was a period of time when some manufacturers decreased their oil change intervals after settling class action lawsuits over oil sludging caused by customers not changing oil as required. Toyota settled a case in 2007 covering 2.5 million vehicles.

It costs a company nothing to require customers to change fluids more frequently than required. It cost millions if a court sides with customers that don't change their oil on schedule and force companies to replace their engines under an extended warranty.

Liability is also why US vehicles routinely have lower tow ratings than in Europe or no tow rating at all.

[Nathan jones]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Thats why the european manufacturers have always quoted extremely long oil change intervals. The maintenance cost over time wins in advertising, its marketed as green, and it props up sales of their new cars as the cars won't last as long after the warranty period is up.
Thats why they say anything can be made to last forever if you take care of it, because its more or less true on vehicles. Swap a bmw that is known for rod bearing failures before 100k to 1997 Toyota maintenance scheduling and it'll do 200k+.
This is also why other manufacturers have started to increase their maintenance intervals as well including Toyota.

Yes, good. Also conversely in europe most steel oil filters were swapped for paper. Really sneaky. If you don't change them often enough at the paper breaks up and blocks the oil channels (mostly vauxhall/opel/cheverolet and vw). Oil is not too expensive. If you buy bulk 0w-20 (20l £80-90) a change can cost £20 (5l sump) so twice a year I don't think is bad. 0w-16 is still expensive here

...Regarding the first comment I made, glass, iron, pvc. They are the highest density in classses and not all the cheapest. So if you kind of wanted cars to be heavy and well E=mc2 so a higher mass would mean transporting an item from one place to another uses an increased amount of energy (irrespective of source) manufacturing with with those materials would be the way to go

[Nathan jones]

I only talk of mass so much as the rural roads of the u.k are very different to driving in the u.s hence ecomodder largely Cd focused upgrades

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

It is routine for US models to have shorter maintenance intervals than European models. For example my 2005 and 2009 Prius called for oil changes every 5,000 miles in the USA and every 15,000 km in Europe. Same oil specified. This is due to manufacturers knowing that US customers do not following the factory maintenance schedule.

I just scoped my cylinders in the 2006 Prius with 215k miles and the block is junk. Regardless of the oil change intervals the previous owners did it didn't keep it from tearing chunks out of the cylinder walls. And you can't bore these engines so my engine is now junk. Three cylinders have chunks missing out of the cylinder walls and all four have grooves.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I just scoped my cylinders in the 2006 Prius with 215k miles and the block is junk. Regardless of the oil change intervals the previous owners did it didn't keep it from tearing chunks out of the cylinder walls. And you can't bore these engines so my engine is now junk. Three cylinders have chunks missing out of the cylinder walls and all four have grooves.

How does that even happen?

I've had high mileage Toyota Camry engines seize up from overheating and quit when the wife was driving it, and later after filling the coolant back up the thing runs fine.

Guess that scoping helped inform your best move on that Prius. The value of used cars isn't going to get any better than right now, but I guess it's probably scrap value?

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

How does that even happen?

I've been looking and seeing a lot on the web that indicates it's the rings that get stuck from buildup and then eventually cause damage to the cylinder walls.

This seems to be very common on Toyota engines. Some say it's the oil relief passages on the pistons being too small. Others that most oils don't have enough of the right detergents to clean out the piston rings (that Toyota brand oil does have a specific detergent package to prevent this).

But there seems to be a consensus that the solution is simply changing the oil as specified in the (USA) manual, that is, every 5,000 miles or 6 months unless you use it strickly for highway cruising (in which case you can go as much as double that).

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

European auto manufacturers quote long service intervals because they expect customers will use the correct specialized fluids required to achieve those long service intervals.

And the downsizing is also a matter of concern, as turbocharged engines tend to be way more sensitive to lower-grade oils than most naturally-aspirated engines were around 20 years ago. Besides turbo-lag which may be quite critical in some regions, to the point of almost neglecting any practical benefit of downsized engines.

In Europe that isn't a problem - most people actually follow the maintenance schedule. In the USA - a BMW is just as likely to get bulk Jiffy Lube oil as the euro spec oil.

No wonder Volkswagen retained that 5-cyl 2.5L naturally-aspirated engine for instance, as it was more redneck-proof than the TSI engines fitted to Euro-spec versions of the Golf and the Passat back in the day.