Aptera Reboot - Improved

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Aptera is a university science experiment, not a consumer product. They're more dead than FUV.

As I mentioned above, you could get my science experiment up and running for about a grand, and it would be more efficient than the Aptera because it's even more minimalist. I bet our car was around 70 wh/mile. The 2HP motor could get you up to at least 50 (only had enough traction to get up to 45 on the quarter mile school track).

Yes, it may not really be a consumer product.

No offense though, but you aren't very convincing with your alternatives.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

No offense though, but you aren't very convincing with your alternatives.

You understand my point perfectly then.

[freebeard]

freebeard, you want to get my old trike from high school going now that FUV is SOL?

Mah, I'm good. What I want is an electric Beetle with a six-foot hubless wheel that goes right through where the back window was.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

You understand my point perfectly then.

That the future of the auto industry is a boring mess of boxes on wheels with iPads attached to the dash that are not worth getting at all excited about other than they'll move me from point A to point B just like cars always have done?

Common arguments for common popular vehicles:

"But the instant torque!"
Me- "Lame."

"But the 0 to 60 times!"
Me- "And?"

"Look at how sleek and sexy that car is!"
Me- "Ya. It looks like another grey box on wheels that can't be distinguished from anything else on the road."

"And look at the size of the touchscreen!"
Me- "I hate touchscreens!"

[Isaac Zachary]

Let me put it this way. Cars are like iPhones. Every year they get little faster and a they get a little bigger screen, yet people get excited about that. But personally, I don't.

There are certain things on certain cars that are new and unique and at the same time practical or helpful in some way and also affordable.

Take EV's and plug-in hybrids for an example. Especially when they first came out (publicly in the 21st century) they were pretty cool since there hardly were any. Now I can get a car that plugs in and saves me money, produces less CO2 (if that's something important to me) doesn't need oil changes, etc. This is one reason I would seriously consider the Prius Prime or the Chevy Bolt as my next car purchase.

Of course once I actually do need to purchase another car, by then most cars may possibly be EV's or PHEV's. That's a good thing, more choices. But there probably won't be much difference between such vehicles just like there aren't really any differences between ICEV's today. For an example, there'll be an EV sedan from Chevy that has a 250 mile range. And there'll be one from Toyota with similar mileage. And one from Mazda and another from Ford which may be the same EV, only rebadged. And another from Honda. What will distinguish one from the other other than this one gets 124MPGe and this other one gets 132MPGe? More cupholders in one than the other?

If the Aptera does get 337MPGe then that would distinguish it from the rest. If the Aptera does allow me to travel up to 40 miles a day on pure solar, that would distinguish it from the rest. If it doesn't then I guess I better figure out how many cup holders I can live with or without so I can make a good next car purchase.

[redpoint5]

The Aptera doesn't solve enough yet-unsolved problems to enough people with those problems, at a price that benefits both the business and the consumer, to be viable.

Everything you say about various automotive manufacturers being hardly distinguishable is precisely why the industry is consolidating. We don't need 150 versions of practically the same car, so most of the manufacturers will disappear.

BTW- Aptera failing isn't due to them radically departing from mainstream automotive design. They were absolutely right to depart from that already saturated and brutally competitive market. To start a successful automotive company now, it has to solve a different problem. That's what Tesla did. Tesla retained all the things that appeal to the broader market (5 seats and 4 doors) though while innovating where they saw opportunity for improvement (EV drivetrain with laptop batteries).

In my view, there has never been a more exciting time in the automotive world. When was there so many amazing things being developed? The innovation of leaded gasoline?

Cars getting more powerful, more efficient, reliable, safe... those are all exciting things. I'd love to have a Cybertruck, or practically any of the EV trucks. A 7-seater Model Y might be super convenient. I look forward to an electric motorcycle someday.

[freebeard]

In my view, there has never been a more exciting time in the automotive world. When was there so many amazing things being developed?

The 1950s, when Detroit followed the So-Cal custom trends.


i.pinimg.com/originals/14/09/22/140922e884dc4cc651d52f1e73485d61.jpg

The magazines were small enough to hide in a school text book.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

The 1950s, when Detroit followed the So-Cal custom trends.

The magazines were small enough to hide in a school text book.

I'm sure it was more exciting to have lived through that era; a more simplistic one with fewer things to be distracted by.

If however, one could simultaneously experience both eras at the same time, this one would be more exciting. Cars driving themselves? That's some whacky sci-fi concept. Bulletproof trucks. Vehicles that can crab-steer out of tight spots. Voice commanded navigation. Interactive touch-screen controls. Adaptive cruise control. "Pet mode".

Not being excited is a result of having adapted to so many amazing things surrounding us that we don't see anything amazing at all. Everything was better back when everything was worse.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

The Aptera doesn't solve enough yet-unsolved problems to enough people with those problems, at a price that benefits both the business and the consumer, to be viable.

Everything you say about various automotive manufacturers being hardly distinguishable is precisely why the industry is consolidating. We don't need 150 versions of practically the same car, so most of the manufacturers will disappear.

BTW- Aptera failing isn't due to them radically departing from mainstream automotive design. They were absolutely right to depart from that already saturated and brutally competitive market. To start a successful automotive company now, it has to solve a different problem. That's what Tesla did. Tesla retained all the things that appeal to the broader market (5 seats and 4 doors) though while innovating where they saw opportunity for improvement (EV drivetrain with laptop batteries).

In my view, there has never been a more exciting time in the automotive world. When was there so many amazing things being developed? The innovation of leaded gasoline?

Cars getting more powerful, more efficient, reliable, safe... those are all exciting things. I'd love to have a Cybertruck, or practically any of the EV trucks. A 7-seater Model Y might be super convenient. I look forward to an electric motorcycle someday.

Fair enough. We agree that Tesla and the EV revolution has solved some major problems. Mind you, though, that the first Tesla also only sat 2 people. I'm just saying.

And again, I don't see the small jumps to be all that exciting. You say safety is increasing yet deaths per million miles is actually getting worse statistically. Efficiency is increasing, yet I got 60mpg in a 1985 VW with zero modifications. What efficiency increases are we talking about on EV's, other than Aptera, and what is the actual benefit? So I could get a Nissan Leaf, a Chevy Bolt or a Hyundai Kona with all about the same ranges, charge needs, etc. Where's the benefit between them and any other EV similarly priced?

Does the Cybertruck have more cup holders than the Rivian or the F-150 Lightning? Maybe you have a use case for a pickup. I lost interest in pickups the first day I had all my tools stolen out of the back of mine. I never considered one ever again. True, if I couldn't tow around a little trailer I might be interested again in pickups. Other than that, what's the point in having one other than to show off how big of a loan the bank would give a person? If I couldn't own and tow a little trailer the Ford Maverick, or something along those lines, would be what I'd be interested in.

Cost is another thing. So the Aptera will be a Nissan Leaf with way less room at best. But I was able to afford a Nissan Leaf once. Maybe some day there will be cheap Teslas and EV pickups, but for the forseeable future these vehicles are way out of my price range even if there were some practical reason for me to have one compared to any sedan with X amount of cup holders.

Out of all the non-Aptera EV's the Cybertruck is the only one that seems to have something novel about it. Well, that truck and the handful of PHEV's that offer the best of both worlds.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

And again, I don't see the small jumps to be all that exciting. You say safety is increasing yet deaths per million miles is actually getting worse statistically.

I was just looking at this earlier. The highest per capita fatalities occurred around 1937 at 29 per 100k population. The lowest occurred in the early 1900s, because nobody had a car. The lowest in the last 200 years has been the last 2 decades. We're at 12 deaths per 100k despite the fact that cars are insanely faster than they were in 1937, and everyone owns one.

Efficiency is increasing, yet I got 60mpg in a 1985 VW with zero modifications. What efficiency increases are we talking about on EV's, other than Aptera, and what is the actual benefit? ...I was able to afford a Nissan Leaf once. Maybe some day there will be cheap Teslas and EV pickups, but for the forseeable future these vehicles are way out of my price range

Jason already shared this graphic showing vehicles getting way more fuel efficient, way more powerful, and growing a bit in size and weight. Just because you owned a dinky car that was more fuel efficient back in the day doesn't mean there hasn't been improvement.



How much did you pay for the Leaf? Back in 2020, a 3 year old Chevy Bolt could be purchased for $13k. A new one could be had for $22k. It has 3x more range than your Leaf, and a lot more power. The battery also doesn't rapidly degrade. I'd say those improvements in the EV world in just 6 years is pretty exciting. We're barely into the 2nd decade of EVs, and look how far we've come.

Vehicles are unaffordable now due to the global economy, and to a much lesser extent, domestic policy. You can't predict markets, but you can prepare for them.