Honda Insight w/Acura TSX engine - Ecomodding

[The Toecutter]

Have you ever taken this thing to the drag strip? I'm really curious how fast it is. I saw the videos on youtube, and the thing sure got up and went...

This is a great way to demonstrate the importance of load reduction(aero drag/rolling resistance/mass) on fuel economy. Changing the engine to a relative monster from a smaller displacement power starved one really has comparatively little impact on fuel economy in most normal driving conditions. This beast of an engine you installed into this Insight exemplifies that. When are you going to shove a turbocharger in it?

In the 1970s, we could have had 40 mpg musclecars instead of the power-starved 4-cylinder gas-guzzling econocrap the U.S. auto industry decided to punish buyers with for daring to demand better efficiency. But the U.S. manufacturers refused to give up planned obsolescence, and they ended up getting their asses handed to them by superior Japanese econocrap that actually improved efficiency in a meaningful way over virtually everything Detroit had to offer. Imagine what a 426 Hemi could have done in a 2,500 lb steel-bodied featherweight of a sedan with a 0.19 Cd and a frontal area of 20 sq ft, with long-legged 220 mph gearing. The Japanese may not have had a chance had Detroit thought outside of the box they made for themselves and that Insight may never have existed 30 years later.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

Have you ever taken this thing to the drag strip? I'm really curious how fast it is. I saw the videos on youtube, and the thing sure got up and went...

I'd like to, once the Covid stuff dies down. Most events and venues are closed/canceled for the time being.

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

This is a great way to demonstrate the importance of load reduction(aero drag/rolling resistance/mass) on fuel economy. Changing the engine to a relative monster from a smaller displacement power starved one really has comparatively little impact on fuel economy in most normal driving conditions. This beast of an engine you installed into this Insight exemplifies that. When are you going to shove a turbocharger in it?

I'd say my conclusion was opposite! I've seen something like a 33-40% reduction in fuel economy, both in average and peak, compared with the stock engine.

Here's an example:

At 60mph, in 6th gear, my engine turns almost exactly 2000rpm. If I'm rolling down a hill at a constant 60mph, I can shift to neutral, then hold the revs @ 2000rpm, and my fuel economy is only ~65-70mpg.

Meanwhile, with the stock engine, I was able to see maybe 85mpg cruising @ 60mph on level ground. At 50mph, my fuel economy could reach or exceed 100mpg.

I expect I could get better economy if I had even taller gearing - my cruising manifold pressure is only something like 300mbar, despite the tall gearing. I probably have the torque to cruise @ 60mph at more like 1300-1400rpm, though I'd then be pretty far outside of the engine's peak BSFC range.

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

In the 1970s, we could have had 40 mpg musclecars instead of the power-starved 4-cylinder gas-guzzling econocrap the U.S. auto industry decided to punish buyers with for daring to demand better efficiency. But the U.S. manufacturers refused to give up planned obsolescence, and they ended up getting their asses handed to them by superior Japanese econocrap that actually improved efficiency in a meaningful way over virtually everything Detroit had to offer. Imagine what a 426 Hemi could have done in a 2,500 lb steel-bodied featherweight of a sedan with a 0.19 Cd and a frontal area of 20 sq ft, with long-legged 220 mph gearing. The Japanese may not have had a chance had Detroit thought outside of the box they made for themselves and that Insight may never have existed 30 years later.

There was definitely some complacency going on.

And we wonder why Ford and GM are pulling out of world markets.

[The Toecutter]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'd like to, once the Covid stuff dies down. Most events and venues are closed/canceled for the time being.



I'd say my conclusion was opposite! I've seen something like a 33-40% reduction in fuel economy, both in average and peak, compared with the stock engine.

Here's an example:

At 60mph, in 6th gear, my engine turns almost exactly 2000rpm. If I'm rolling down a hill at a constant 60mph, I can shift to neutral, then hold the revs @ 2000rpm, and my fuel economy is only ~65-70mpg.

Meanwhile, with the stock engine, I was able to see maybe 85mpg cruising @ 60mph on level ground. At 50mph, my fuel economy could reach or exceed 100mpg.

Did you ever get a chance to run the stock engine with the electric drive disabled? You must compare apples to apples. The hybrid drive allows the 3-cylinder to avoid its most inefficient operating points.

I drew my initial conclusion looking at the lifetime mpg figures you posted for both cars, btw.

A hybrid drive with your current setup should allow you to do the similar to the original, but I imagine remapping the ECU to take advantage of the larger engine's different operating characteristics would be a total nightmare, nevermind everything else you'd have to do to make it all work.

And we wonder why Ford and GM are pulling out of world markets.

Soon, all that may be available in the U.S. are crossover blobs and oversized trucks. And then if/when the fad dies, they'll be scrambling for a taxpayer funded bailout as masses of vehicles sit unsold...

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

Did you ever get a chance to run the stock engine with the electric drive disabled? You must compare apples to apples. The hybrid drive allows the 3-cylinder to avoid its most inefficient operating points.

I drew my initial conclusion looking at the lifetime mpg figures you posted for both cars, btw.

I did!

I drove the car with the hybrid electronics completely removed for around a year. Fuel economy was largely unaffected. In the fuel logs, that year was a little lower, but I chalk that up mostly to different driving conditions - shorter trips, and more stop-and-go, mostly.

Steady-state @ 50mph was still very nearly 100mpg in good weather, whereas with the new engine it's more like 60-62mpg @ 50mph.

The last 90 days you see on "Gaptooth" were in the depths of Vermont winter, driving mostly in subzero stop-and-go conditions. I was living downtown in an apartment, and my commute was... maybe 6 miles? Lifetime economy was closer to 65mpg, and that included a lot of towing - some of it pretty ridiculous.

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

A hybrid drive with your current setup should allow you to do the similar to the original, but I imagine remapping the ECU to take advantage of the larger engine's different operating characteristics would be a total nightmare, nevermind everything else you'd have to do to make it all work.

I think it would be pretty cool to bolt up a small motor to the belt drive, and have some electric assist.

That said, the assist with the stock engine did not actually do much to improve fuel economy. Off the top of my head, there were some fuel savings due to having auto-stop in city driving, a small amount from kinetic energy recovery (regenerative braking), and from a DC-DC converter that made electricity more efficiently than an alternator.

Mostly what the IMA system did, was allow Honda to gear the engine far taller than they would have otherwise. The 3 cylinder was geared such that in 5th, at redline, it would have been at nearly 180mph. With this gearing, the car generally could not maintain normal highway speeds with the A/C running if there was any grade whatsoever. The "assist' got you over a hill without downshifting, then recharged the battery on your way down the other side.

To see any huge gains with this engine, I *think* I'm likely to need even taller gearing. It's basically idling along in gear even at 70mph+, with a top speed of ~240mph in 6th. Something like Toyota's planetary gears would probably save me a ton of fuel.

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

Soon, all that may be available in the U.S. are crossover blobs and oversized trucks. And then if/when the fad dies, they'll be scrambling for a taxpayer funded bailout as masses of vehicles sit unsold...

For sure. There's basically nothing domestically made that I have any interest in right now. I liked the Volt quite a bit, but I understand the 2nd gen was not all that reliable and not very repairable. I'm interested in some of the cars Korea is making, and if I needed something "new" today, I'd probably pick up an Ioniq Plug-In a few years old.

$10,000, low miles, 30 miles on electricity, then 60mpg highway when the battery is depleted? And it's a useful hatchback at that?

[Ecky]

Did an oil analysis of 0w20 vs 0w30.




Also, I have a new toy to beta test, made by a member of the K Swapped Insights group:




It's an all-in-one cluster converter/controller. It allows tachometer conversion, which can be used to match clusters from cars with different cylinder counts (e.g. 4 cylinder into a 3 cylinder chassis, 3 cylinder cluster into a 6 cylinder chassis). It allows quick and easy adjustment of the speedometer, so I can, for example, run different sizes summer vs winter should I desire. It is capable of adjusting the temperature gauge bars (e.g. 2 bars cold, 4 bars where VTEC becomes available, 6 bars when thermostat opens, 8 bars when fan kicks on, 10 bars "nearing overheating"). Additionally, it may have the potential to, in the future, take control of other IMA functions, such as the fuel consumption display, the IMA battery gauge (maybe use it for oil pressure or 12v?), and the assist/regen gauges (maybe a boost gauge?).

[minor4326]

What a neat tool. Sounds like a Pegasus-like product. Are these commercially available?

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by minor4326

What a neat tool. Sounds like a Pegasus-like product. Are these commercially available?

Mine is #1, but the maker will soon be selling them on the K Swapped Insights page, after I give him my review and thumbs up.

[redpoint5]

My TSX is geared stupid. If I put larger diameter tires on (not sure they would fit), I could use this to adjust the speedo.

Thought about installing an RSX final to reduce RPMs.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My TSX is geared stupid. If I put larger diameter tires on (not sure they would fit), I could use this to adjust the speedo.

Thought about installing an RSX final to reduce RPMs.

Even better than the RSX final (unless it's too tall for you), there's a group on Facebook that sells an OEM 4.1 (4.058?) final drive that comes from the Euro Accord, and their prices are very reasonable.

If I could do my build over again, I'd probably use their inexpensive OEM 4.1 with a K20 engine, because aftermarket gears tend to whine.

https://www.facebook.com/theoldschoolcapital

If you need a speedometer correction though, I do have a Dakota Digital converter that I no longer need.

[redpoint5]

I didn’t know about the Euro Accord option. How much time would it take a noob to do the swap? It’d probably be worth it to me as I always say the TSX is nearly the perfect car except for the dumb gearing (and terrible turning radius).