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Old 09-05-2013, 07:58 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HypermilerAX View Post
There must be errors :
- Civic 2013 width 1.77 m rather than 1.5
- Original Mini width 1.41 m rather than 1.2

The growth is similar for both models.
All I can think is different sources. But your numbers drive the point harder.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:35 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Back on topic.

The Mirage is darn near the lightest car with the highest utility and great mileage that you can buy (or will be able to shortly) on the market today. It'll also probably have one of the lowest cost to own of any car in the US period. I'm looking forward to seeing what an ecomodder can do with one of them.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:11 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HypermilerAX View Post
Safety adds weight, that's not a myth. In the late 80's, we had a 5-seater car with four cylinder engine that weighed 1420 lbs with no expensive materials, the AX. The car was rated 60 mpg at 56 mph in 1986.
To what are due the 550 lbs difference if it's not due to safety and comfort ?
Citroen AX
Wheelbase 2,280 mm (89.8 in)
Length 3,525 mm (138.8 in)
Width 1,555 mm (61.2 in)
Height 1,355 mm (53.3 in)

Mirage:
Wheelbase 2,450 mm (96.5 in) +6.3"
Length 3,710 mm (146.1 in) +7.3"
Width 1,665 mm (65.6 in) +4.4"
Height 1,490 mm (58.7 in) +5.4"

That's a huge difference in size. The AX is smaller in many key dimensions than the cars competing in the segment below the Mirage in Asia. Aside from the bigger footprint, there's the extra 200cc of engine, the air-conditioning (the AX was only 640 kg without AC), power steering and other niceties that come standard on the Mirage.

The non-federalized Mirage is 825 kg. The cars it competes with are all around 900-1000 kg (non-federalized... without airbags, to boot). The AX-sized cars in the segment below weigh between 690-760 kg, about 200 kg less. Subtract 200 kg from the Mirage to theoretically shrink it down to AX size, and you have around 625 kg. With AC. Works for me.

Like I've opined in the Cruze thread... yes... weight is an issue, but we should also consider the fact that cars have been drifting upwards in terms of market segments over the past few decades. The Mirage is very small by today's standards, but it's not quite as small as you think.

Last edited by niky; 09-05-2013 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:55 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HypermilerAX View Post
Safety adds weight, that's not a myth.
Nobody's denying that safety adds weight. But in my unscientific opinion, it seems to take the blame most of the time for subcompacts that have become bloated.

Quote:
To what are due the 550 lbs difference if it's not due to safety and comfort ?
You nailed it with "comfort": I think it's more accurate to blame hedonic adaptation/lifestyle inflation than safety equipment.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:52 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
You nailed it with "comfort": I think it's more accurate to blame hedonic adaptation/lifestyle inflation than safety equipment.
Hedonistic safety equipment!
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:43 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltArc View Post
All I can think is different sources. But your numbers drive the point harder.
Yes for your underrated original Mini width. No for your underrated 2013 Civic width.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niky View Post
[...]

That's a huge difference in size. The AX is smaller in many key dimensions than the cars competing in the segment below the Mirage in Asia. Aside from the bigger footprint, there's the extra 200cc of engine, the air-conditioning (the AX was only 640 kg without AC), power steering and other niceties that come standard on the Mirage.
[...]
I take your point but it would be interesting to compare the inner dimensions of the cars. You can have a wider car but no more space inside due to thicker doors and you can have a higher car but no more place above the head due to a higher seating position. The mirage would probably still be bigger but by less.
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Old 09-06-2013, 04:18 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Having never seen the AX in person, can't comment on that, but the wheelbase is usually a good indicator of interior space.

Six inches is about the difference between a modern "compact" car and a "midsized" sedan.

Also, the Mirage has very little in terms of overhangs, and the styling is a bit slab sided. This isn't a Volvo where the door panels just out a huge ways from the greenhouse.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:51 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Nobody's denying that safety adds weight. But in my unscientific opinion, it seems to take the blame most of the time for subcompacts that have become bloated.
Exactly.
They can build 'm light AND safe these days.
A lot safer than li'l cars ever were, anyway.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:15 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltArc View Post
Original Mini
Length: 3.1m
Width: 1.2m
Height: 1.4m
Curb weight: 626kg

Original Civic
Length: 3.5m
Width: 1.5m
Curb weight: 680kg
Let's see how the VW up compares to these.

I'm old enough to remember both when they were still available ... new.

The 12' up! beats them handsdown on driving qualities, safety features, and makes both of them seem ridiculous as far as interior space is concerned.
The up! being a magnitude roomier than either car.

It only seats 4 though, a sensible choice IMO, as you won't get 5 people in this size of car with any kind of comfort for the poor sods on the rear seats.
That didn't even work out in my Volvo V50 !


Length : 3.54m
Wheelbase : 2.42m
Width : 1.64m
Height : 1.62m
Curb weight : 854 kg (no driver, nearly full fuel tank)
(my GasDwarf is 956 kg due to the extra CNG equipment)

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Last edited by euromodder; 09-06-2013 at 11:21 AM..
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