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Old 10-05-2022, 03:10 PM   #571 (permalink)
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Ignore the video if you must but at ?t=158 there is a helpful chart that list all the variation of three-wheeled vehicles. It differentiates rigid and leaning reverse trikes.

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Old 10-05-2022, 03:48 PM   #572 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snax View Post
I don't believe it adds enough to the cost to be concerned with it in any case. Nice little boost, but just too much ado about relatively nothing. The EV haters are certainly going to have a field day with the rare case of individual that doesn't understand that reality, but honestly, the impact of that will be insignificant against the majority of people who now actually want to drive electric.
I went over this in detail in post #394

Quote:
Aptera prices solar at $700 to add 400 watts. Extrapolating that out, the customer is paying $1,575 for 700 watts ($2.25 per watt). At 10 cents per kWh, that could pay for 15,750 kWh. That is 157,500 miles in the Aptera! Aptera claims the car can gain about 10,000 solar miles per year in San Francisco. At that rate, you'd only need 16 years to break even on that investment.
I guess solar only represents 6% of the total cost of the vehicle. Then again, the cost of manufacturing the car might be reduced by much more than 6% if solar was left off entirely, as an option.

The point is, many consumers are going to have unrealistic expectations of what solar will be capable of, and not consider the huge inconveniences they will suffer when a cloudy day prevents them from making their commute to work.

As an EV advocate, we should be setting expectations slightly low so that people are pleasantly surprised when EVs meet or exceed their expectation. The fanatics out there hype things and portray EVs in an unrealistically positive light so that when people finally experience them, their expectations are not met.

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Consumer reports put interest at EV purchase for new cars at 71% back in July.
61% of US self-report that they are Christian. Do we see 200M people at church on Sunday?

People put what they think they should say in surveys, they don't actually consider their own motivations.

We're at 3% EV market share. I use that as my criteria to assess consumer interest.

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"Crabs want to drag you back in the bucket"
More like daydreamers' can't be dragged back to reality.
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Old 10-05-2022, 04:45 PM   #573 (permalink)
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Consumer reports put interest at EV purchase for new cars at 71% back in July. Not sure what criteria they used for that though. Other surveys seem to suggest lower numbers.

Obviously, one of the biggest issues are cost and range. Aptera has a huge advantage if they can deliver there.
People want a car the size of a car and looks like a normal car. Now I wonder how many said they would buy an EV just so they didn't sound like a Troglodyte to the poll taker.
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Old 10-05-2022, 11:13 PM   #574 (permalink)
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Here in sunny Texas, the Aptera would probably never need a grid charge for a typical commute. I have a friend with a reservation.
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Old 10-05-2022, 11:26 PM   #575 (permalink)
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Just need headlights/taillights replaced every 5 years, and a paint job in 8. Nice having a dry sauna to get into every day, too. Bonus!
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Old 10-06-2022, 09:45 AM   #576 (permalink)
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Here is my analysis of Apteras solar charging. I'm still working on it but this is almost complete. I'm copying some of my stuff that i posted over on the AOC discord:

I went through all the copper connects on the solar roof. If they are all connected like i suspect they are, then that means they split up the solar roof into two groupings. the blue circles are the unusual part of the copper connects where i believe the wires from the 2 groups are put into the body. There are 30 cells in the hood, 20 in the dash, 56 on the roof, and 82 cells on the hatch, with 6 on the chevrons. That's a total of 188 as they indicated the chevrons might not make it to production, 194 with the chevrons. On the picture of the solar mule it had 7 rectangles. I think they might be solar charging DC-DC converters. 1 for the hood, 1 for the dash, 2 for the roof. That leads me to believe the solar hatch will be broken up into 3 groups. That would be 3 groups of 27-29 cells which is similar to the roof (if the roof really is broken up into 2 groups.) The more grouping of solar panels there are, the more efficient it is at charging when one panel, or even a portion of one panel is shaded. Using home solar as an example, if 10 panels are using 1 AC inverter, when one panel is in the shade it drops the charging efficiency of all the panels by more than 10%.





Best guess is they are Maxeon Gen 3, 3.72 watt cells with 24.3% cell efficiency, and 82.51% fill factor. Max 0.632 volts, 5.89 amps. 188 3.72 watt cells give you the 700 watts of solar that Aptera says it will have. That would be 111.6 watts hood, 74.4 watts dash, 208.32 watts roof, and 305.04 watts hatch. Base aptera would be 76 cells at 282.72 watts. 106 cells at 394 watts with only hood option. 158 cells at 587.76 watts with just the hatch option. And 188 cells at 700 watts for the full solar package. These are unique in that they can be bent and are very durable.

https://youtu.be/ZKJBMiiCXus
https://youtu.be/CgEYfB_Bc5s





Aptera says in ideal conditions you can gain 40 miles per day with the full solar package. At 100 wh/mi, that's 4 kwh per day of solar charging. At 21.27 watts per day per cell. Base solar would generate 1617 watts per day for 16.1 miles. Hood option would generate 2255 watts for 22.5 miles per day. Hatch option would generate 3361 watts per day for 33.6 miles. Full solar would generate 4000 watts for 40 miles per day. This lines up with the stated 16/22/34/40 miles that Aptera states. But these are ideal numbers.

The math checks out as far as how much energy they say the solar panels will produce if the cars efficiency is 100 wh/mi. Per the NREL peak solar hours map, most of America gets greater than 5.72 peak solar hours per day in the summer. Using this peak solar hours calculator: https://footprinthero.com/peak-sun-hours-calculator 5.72 hours on a 700 watt panel laying flat on the ground will give you exactly 4kwh of solar power per day. That would be 40 miles at 100 wh/mi. At Carlsbad California in July you would average 6.93 peak solar hours per day for 48.5 solar miles of range. In December you would only average 3 hours for 21 miles. You would average 5.3 hours for the year for 37.1 miles per day, or 1,354.15 kwh for the year and 13,541 miles of solar range per year. Of course the solar panels on the Aptera aren't flat but at different angles. So some would be more efficient or less depending on the angle, and which cardinal direction you park the car.

The National average cost per kwh of residential electricity is 18 cents, and 30 cents in California. The total 700 watts of solar on the car would save you $245 a year on grid electricity at the national average, or $409 a year in California from solar charging.

The $300 111.6 watt solar hood cost $2.68 per watt. The $600 305.04 watt hatch costs $1.96 per watt.

The $900 hood and hatch solar package saves $148 a year in electricity at the national average, or $247 a year in California. The break even cost at the national average is 6 years, in California you would break even at just 3.6 years. After you reach the break even period, the solar would be generating cost savings for you every year, year after year. Not everything is about is about payback cost though. Just like you don't expect a car to pay for itself, or how you buy things for aesthetic reasons. You don't have to buy the solar package. But if you did it has other benefits like off grid charging where you can't plug in, camping, and reduced co2 emissions from charging, and improved range when driving.

The following is the average peak daily amount of solar energy per day. The different solar panels are adjusted for angle and cardinal direction when parked. This gives you a rough idea of what you could expect, and you can use your own fudge factor to lower it 10-20% or however clouds your conditions are, and how much shade your parking spot gets. You can use the link above to find out the peak solar hours for your area.



Aptera system efficiency:

How efficient is the Aptera if you factor in solar?

Motormatchup estimates the 41kwh fwd Aptera gets 103wh/mi at 60 mph with 200lbs extra weight, 0.25kw accesory drain, 70 degrees F, and 500 feet above sea level https://www.motormatchup.com/efficie...1978846a96b74e . At 60mph The Aptera would gain 4.7 wh/mi from base solar. Thats 4.7 wh every minute, every mile. The base solar aptera has 282 watts of solar, so your net efficiency becomes 98.28 wh/mi. The 41 kwh pack then has an effective range of 417 miles, gaining 19 miles from solar. It would take 6.95 driving hours between charging.



At 60mph with full solar you gain 11.6 wh/mi from solar. Your net efficiency becomes 91.3 wh/mi, your effective range becomes 448 miles, for an added 50 miles of range from solar. That would be 7.46 hours of driving time.

At 65mph it would use 114 wh/mi. Full solar would make it net 103.23 wh/mi, gaining 10.76 wh a mile. Range would be 397 miles at 41 kwh. Gaining 37 miles of range. That would be 6.1 hours of driving.

At 70mph it would use 126 wh/mi. Full solar would make it 116 wh/mi, gaining 10 wh/mi. Range would be 353 miles at 41 kwh. Gaining 28 miles of range. That would be 5.04 hours of driving.

Note: These efficiency figures are for driving during peak sun hours. If you are driving longer than the peak solar hours available in a single day, then the maximum added range per day will be limited to the total hours of useful solar in that day.
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Old 10-06-2022, 11:33 AM   #577 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Here in sunny Texas, the Aptera would probably never need a grid charge for a typical commute. I have a friend with a reservation.
Unless the vehicle is barely driven a few times a week it will need grid power. Plus as far as I know no one has demonstrated it getting 10 miles per kwh in real world driving.
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Old 10-06-2022, 12:25 PM   #578 (permalink)
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Awesome analysis Sheedog. Money talks. Clearly the solar will save it over the long run with those numbers. Still potentially optimistic, but I see no reason these cars can't be on the road for 2-3x or more of the calculated payback period.
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Old 10-06-2022, 12:55 PM   #579 (permalink)
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Way more thorough analysis than what information I was able to dig up in a few minutes of reading through their website. Seems my estimate of solar cost was right in the ballpark.

Now that I google it, seems the average national average electricity price increased from 14 cents to 18 cents in 1 year. Fantastic, a 20% increase in cost in just a year

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Clearly the solar will save it over the long run with those numbers.
That wasn't the takeaway at all. If you pay twice the national average for electricity and are a dummy that charges during peak times, and somehow manage to drive exactly the distance replenished by leaving your car baking in the sun every day, and you happen to live next door to Mexico... your ROI is 4 years.

In practice, how many folks will pay attention enough to ensure they leave their car discharged enough to accept whatever the sun will deliver for the day, but then charge from the wall whenever the battery becomes too depleted?

It's a nice science experiment, and the 3 people that actually use the car as it's advertised will love camping by themselves with it.
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Old 10-06-2022, 02:57 PM   #580 (permalink)
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I live in new mexico if I can park my car in the shade I do.
Leave it in the sun with the windows up its going to be like 180 degrees in there.

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