Aptera Reboot - Improved

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I like Aptera. My dislike is for all those in the Green Religion that are compelled to say how these cars are our salvation, yet almost none of the Believers will be purchasing these vehicles. Their hypocrisy is why a company like this believes they can be successful.

I like the Aptera too. What I can't stand is all the shrilling.
Yes, I am more likely to buy one than most of the shrills.
For example 12 years ago I thought the Nissan leaf was cool, then all the shrills came out of the wood work and I started trashing the Nissan leaf so hard. My 3 main points of attack were the price, battery longevity and tragically slow level 1 charging. Because all the shrills were saying " you can charge it from any 120v outlet".
Well they fixed most of the battery problems, the price cratered and I already knew I would need a level 2 charger years prior to buying one. So I got one.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

At least I'm intelligent enough to give a reason why it's stupid.
I'll give more reasons why putting solar panels on a car is totally idiotic, wasteful and not the least bit good or helpful to the environment.
I will channel my inner aerohead for this.
1 solar panels develop lower voltages, stepping up tens of volts to the hundreds of volts required to charge a EV battery will create huge losses.
2 any attempts to use more smaller cells in series to get a higher voltage means more connections, a more fragile setup easier to break, impossible to repair, even more expensive.
3 any attempts to make the panels bigger means not all of the cells will get sun, one blocked cell can cut panel power output in half.
4 anyone who lives in a sunny area where solar panels would be most effective is trying to park in the shade, such as my self. Hmm would I rather get in a 100'F car or a 170'F car?
5 easily damaged by hail and non repairable, just take the whole roof panel, hood, trunk lid what ever is covered with solar cells, chuck it in the trash and replace with a new one.
6, waste of resources, will cost thousands of dollars, maybe generate hundreds of dollars worth of power in its life time.
Waste of valuable resource, solar panels laying flat like in a car roof will run at about 2/3 of peak power compared to being angled towards the sun.
7, stupid wasteful application. The average vehicle in the US lasts 11 years, a typical roof top solar panel will last 25 to 30 years. Only an idiot would use a solar panel for half it's life then crush it and throw it away.
8 only people from new England or the Pacific nw who barely see the sun will think this is a good idea as they have no clue what high production solar intensity looks like.

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

1 applies to all solar panels,
2 applies to all solar panels,
3 makes no sense,
4 doesn't take into account that 1 a lot of people have to park in the sun anyway daily and 2 that there are places that are sunny and cold,
5 applies to all solar panels unless it's a diy panel that you can desolder the PV cells and replace,
6 and 7, applying this reasoning you might as well as not own any vehicle that "costs thousands of dollars" or anything you won't use to it's fullest potential.
8 is prejudice and a stereotype.

1, yes, so you agree why low voltage solar panels are a bad match for high voltage battery bank?
When looking at high efficiency battery chargers they typically use input voltage of around 70% to 200% of normal pack voltage.
2 yes you agree that there is a practice size limit to cells. I figured that's why the industry standardized on cell sizes at least 25 years sgo.
3 I will further explain. As a normal solar panel gets bigger it's not a problem until it gets so big installers have trouble handing them or shippers can't move them. As you make a panel bigger on a car the panel will start to conform and go around vehicle body curves, not good for a panel.
4 The only place I have been to that's sunny and cold is here, in new Mexico. Sunny and cold appears to be the exception, not the rule. Me personally I park my car so the sun comes in at that low winter angle through the windscreen to melt ice and warm the car some. My roof top solar is almost useless in the winter, making about 1/4 the power of summer, I doubt laid nearly flat solar panels on a car a car would do any better. Also I use more power in the winter, about 25% more power and I get my heat from diesel fuel. In a cool climate your EV power consumption my double due to running the heater. Owners will have to plug in in the winter if they drive the car. That's all there is to it.
5 I tried making a diy panel a long time ago that was serviceable, it worked alright but was not all weather, not practical at all.
6, I have never bought a vehicle that took more than 1 payment to own.
8, I haven't seen anyone from a high sun place shilling for the apthera, to just leave it in the sun and charge.

[sheepdog 44]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAzy05MPX-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgRF_O4ilhM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8rfvRnwFJw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CQm9kHwuiw

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by sheepdog 44

Build them and sell them like that right now. If some one insists on useless features like the solar panels it will be on next year's model, probably? maybe? Who cares just make them already. Do it like the original iphone, the only functional difference between iPhone and iPhone 2 was the camera.

[Isaac Zachary]

Agreed that if sold without solar panels the Aptera would be a good car (as long as everything else works as intended, obviously). But if you're going to put solar panels on a consumers' vehicle, this is the one to do it and I don't see it at all as being the begining of the apocolypse just because a car manufacturer put a solar panel on a car.

The use case scenario is what I'm paying attention to. I see this car as being for mainly two different kinds of people.

1. You have those that want a toy. This could compete with the Mazda Miata. It has two seats and zips around. People in this segment may want the solar and camping kind of stuff because that may be on their lists of things to do with the car, even if not at all practical.
2. Then you have those who want a commuter. You may get some who have enough money for several cars in the family and want something just to go to work in. But I see this as the type of car university students will want. These are the kinds of people who don't need more than a seat or two, end up parking out in the middle of a parking lot with no shade anyway, whether that's at their dorm or on campus, may not have or allways have a chance to park at an EVSE, and they have parents that buy them brand new cars. (I feel like bringing up again that college kid that said he could stuff a piano in his brand new RAV4.)

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

1, yes, so you agree why low voltage solar panels are a bad match for high voltage battery bank?
When looking at high efficiency battery chargers they typically use input voltage of around 70% to 200% of normal pack voltage.
2 yes you agree that there is a practice size limit to cells. I figured that's why the industry standardized on cell sizes at least 25 years sgo.
3 I will further explain. As a normal solar panel gets bigger it's not a problem until it gets so big installers have trouble handing them or shippers can't move them. As you make a panel bigger on a car the panel will start to conform and go around vehicle body curves, not good for a panel.
4 The only place I have been to that's sunny and cold is here, in new Mexico. Sunny and cold appears to be the exception, not the rule. Me personally I park my car so the sun comes in at that low winter angle through the windscreen to melt ice and warm the car some. My roof top solar is almost useless in the winter, making about 1/4 the power of summer, I doubt laid nearly flat solar panels on a car a car would do any better. Also I use more power in the winter, about 25% more power and I get my heat from diesel fuel. In a cool climate your EV power consumption my double due to running the heater. Owners will have to plug in in the winter if they drive the car. That's all there is to it.
5 I tried making a diy panel a long time ago that was serviceable, it worked alright but was not all weather, not practical at all.
6, I have never bought a vehicle that took more than 1 payment to own.
8, I haven't seen anyone from a high sun place shilling for the apthera, to just leave it in the sun and charge.

1. Greater voltage differences do lower the efficiency, but it wouldn't kill the idea. From what Aptera has said, it seems their PV to battery efficiency is around 85%.
2. There are plenty of panels with smaller cells on them to increase the voltage. You can even buy smaller PV cells for DIY. I've never heard of one of these small cell, multi-connection panels dying from having bad connections. Lots of things have lots of connections, EV batteries for an example. Whether the connections fail or not depends more on the quality of the connections than the number of them.
3. Just look at a picture of where the PV cells are on an Aptera. They're on top, not the sides, not the bottom.
4. So you're saying everywhere you go there's a shaded parking space just for you and that's the same with everyone else you know? Everyone I know must be an exception, because when we go to school, work, or Wal-Mart, or even our own driveways, there is no shade. Hot, cold, it doesn't matter, no one in town has a choice, they have to park in the sun except those who have a tree near their driveway or own a garage or are one of the three cars that happened to make it under the shade of those couple of trees at Wal-Mart before everyone else got to the store.
   
   In the winter, yes, plugging in will possibly become more necessary depending on how much the person drives and where he or she lives. But then again, looking at yearly costs, even if you have to stop more at public charging stations or use your personal EVSE more in the winter it still may be worth it to some people. And the 40 miles per day is an average per year, An Aptera owner may get 20 per day in the winter and 60 per day in the summer, for an example.
5. And your point is?
6. And your point is?
7. ?
8. Are you working for a polling company?

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I see this car as being for mainly two three different kinds of people.

3. People who anticipate their overlords rendering them homeless,and needing to move to a Red/Blue state.

[redpoint5]

4. Those wanting to travel long distance to assault someone without leaving behind the usual gas station footage filling up, and the accompanying credit card transaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_N...rport_incident

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

4. Those wanting to travel long distance to assault someone without leaving behind the usual gas station footage filling up, and the accompanying credit card transaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_N...rport_incident

40 miles a day would be a slow get-away though. Unless the 1,000 mile version were fully charged at the time.

[oil pan 4]

In a hell scape like new Mexico one tends to find shade when available.
For me, at home I'm parked under a tree in the summer or in the garage in the winter mainly because there's a coal furnace going. At work I park next to aircraft deicing rigs, they are tall. Will block sun in the early afternoon and they don't move all summer.
40 miles a day is going great to turn into more like 10 miles a day between shorter days, lower sun angle, lower battery efficiency, less regen braking efficiency and using the heater. Using the heater is the one inconvenience everyone forgets to mention.
I cheated and just use a diesel fired heater.

[Isaac Zachary]

I live where it gets to -40°F sometimes and I don't use my heater unless I can't keep the windshield clean.

I have thought about getting a diesel fired heater though because even without using the heater my engine a lot of times won't reach above 100°F all day because of my short routes and refusal to warm up the engine before driving.