Arcimoto, the real thing? ($12k tandem EV trike, 70/130 mi. range)

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

From what I've heard, building a trike is as different from building a 4-wheeled vehicle as anything since the many regulations are either non-existent, or much relaxed.

Even with the car-like cockpit, certification as a motorcycle is an easy loophole to overcome the cost and complexity. When it comes to motorcycles, it seems like the lack of harmonization between EPA/NHTSA rules and other ones applied in other countries is also less of a trouble for motorcycles and tricycles than it would be for a conventional car.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Even with the car-like cockpit, certification as a motorcycle is an easy loophole to overcome the cost and complexity. When it comes to motorcycles, it seems like the lack of harmonization between EPA/NHTSA rules and other ones applied in other countries is also less of a trouble for motorcycles and tricycles than it would be for a conventional car.

Has to be supremely safe, unless it’s inherently dangerous, in which case, who cares? It’s a mad, mad, mad, mad world.

[freebeard]

It’s a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
....
Give me absolute safety, or give me death!

Extra points for consistency.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Has to be supremely safe, unless it’s inherently dangerous, in which case, who cares?

That's quite weird to say the least. If some people actually have no choice but to get a small-displacement motorcycle with drum brakes all around, why not allowing someone to get for example a small econobox of an ancient design as long as it serves right?

It’s a mad, mad, mad, mad world.

And some folks think I'm wrong because I would rather get a car designed in the 80s or 90s with a smaller footprint, yet roomier than some modern designs.

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

That's quite weird to say the least. If some people actually have no choice but to get a small-displacement motorcycle with drum brakes all around, why not allowing someone to get for example a small econobox of an ancient design as long as it serves right?




And some folks think I'm wrong because I would rather get a car designed in the 80s or 90s with a smaller footprint, yet roomier than some modern designs.

Not to speak for him, but think he's saying a similar thing. Inherently dangerous would be like a top helicopter blade that if you stood up it would decapitate you or anyone around you. Inherently dangerous is not a motorcycle old or new.
Basically you shouldn't live your life looking for the most safe car as it's really not statistically much better than the worst.

Sooner or later we are all going to die one way or another. While I don't seek it, I'm not afraid of it. Nor am I going to try and control how it happens.

That saying please don't smoke. It took both my fathers and that's no way to go.

[freebeard]

If you must smoke, smoke something that will do you some good.

I think it's a paraphrase of Patrick Henry.

[redpoint5]

My comment was satire on how our regulation often isn't statistically driven, but emotional. Motorcycles have no crumple zones, no roll cages, safety glass, airbags, ABS requirements, etc. Trikes similarly have very few safety requirements. For some reason we have endless safety requirements for vehicles that have 4 wheels. Why are we more focused on safety for vehicles that are already more safe than those with fewer wheels?

It's entirely arbitrary, or rather I suspect even more, encouraged by established auto manufacturers to create barriers to entry for competition. They can lobby politicians to create increasingly difficult requirements, and the politicians can look like heros because they "made vehicles safe", and nobody ever votes against safety because then they are Hitler.

That's not to say we shouldn't have certain regulations and standards for vehicles, but why would they not apply to all vehicles? Why should a trike not be required to have ABS brakes like vehicles with more wheels, especially when it's even more important on a vehicle that is less stable and offers less protection to the occupants?

... and my signature is a satirical take on Patrick Henry. People are quick to forfeit liberty for the illusion of safety, completely oblivious to the fact that their demise is not going to come about from terrorists or a vehicle that should stop 2ft shorter, but from cardiovascular disease or cancer exacerbated by their excessive weight and lack of conditioning. But, health is something we're too responsible for, so lets look for miniscule ways to force other people to make us more safe at great expense in both liberty and treasure.

[JSH]

I agree that is makes no sense that the USA hasn't mandated ABS brakes for motorcycles like many other countries. That said, the rest of the world moving to ABS has greatly increased the availability of ABS in the USA because it often doesn't make sense to make a specific model for a small market like the USA. We are getting cleaner bikes the same way. (North America makes up 1.5% of global motorcycles sales)

I think motorcycles don't get much focus because there aren't very many in the USA. The latest industry data I've seen shows 8% of US households own a motorcycle. That likely means only about 2-4% of Americans ride a motorcycle and here motorcycles are generally ridden very low miles as a hobby not as regular transportation. Compare that to cars where a huge percentage of Americans own a car and drive it every day. It makes sense to focus on the majority not a tiny minority.

That may change soon. C.A.R.B. is in the process of adopting EURO emission and test standards for motorcycles in 2024. It will be interesting to see if they also adopt the EU's ABS mandate. When CARB states adopt Euro V almost all the USA specific models will die. Our market is tiny as it is and cutting it in half will kill off any remaining US specials.

[Snax]

I don't believe stability is really a concern on a reverse trike. Handling dynamics are virtually identical to having 4 wheels. A mandate for ABS however would likely add unneeded complexity and weight.

I would not mind if none of my vehicles had it. It actually significantly hurts braking in a turn on many cars as they implement 2-channel diagonal split circuits that will actually reduce braking force at the wheel with the MOST grip. (I.e., it is a panic braker's band-aid in my opinion.)

Also, I never had issue detecting and modulating brakes on my motorcycle either, but yeah, some people just can't.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Motorcycles have no crumple zones, no roll cages, safety glass, airbags, ABS requirements, etc. Trikes similarly have very few safety requirements. For some reason we have endless safety requirements for vehicles that have 4 wheels.

Considering the ABS mandate for motorcycles above 250cc is already enforced even in Brazil, while other places such as Thailand already demand at least front ABS for 125cc motorcycles (which allows them to retain the rod-operated rear drum brake), it does surprise me the U.S. doesn't have such regulation.

It's entirely arbitrary, or rather I suspect even more, encouraged by established auto manufacturers to create barriers to entry for competition.

Just like Citroën was basically kicked out of the American market and grey imports were also impacted due to a ban on adjustable suspensions in the 70s or 80s.

They can lobby politicians to create increasingly difficult requirements, and the politicians can look like heros because they "made vehicles safe", and nobody ever votes against safety because then they are Hitler.

In the end, it may sound more Hitler-ish to force the poor into nothing but a motorcycle, eventually with a sidecar, to haul an entire family, because some safety regulation backfired and turned a bare-necessities econobox into unobtainium due to all the cost and complexity of some safety devices simply rendering them proportionately too expensive for most buyers while others would rather move to another segment.