Arcimoto, the real thing? ($12k tandem EV trike, 70/130 mi. range)

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Your thinking of it wrong, it's not an unsafe car, it's a safer motorcycle. It's definitely unsafe compared to any other 2021 car, but it's much safer than any other 2021 motorcycle.

That is exactly what I'm thinking of it as. That doesn't mean I would ride on without any gear on.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

They will get sued sooner or later when somebody's high school aged daughter and her friend gets crushed in a head on, rollover, collision with tree, etc at that max speed even if the injuries would have been worse if they did it on a motorcycle.

I was specifically thinking of roll-over lawsuits with UTVs. It started with the Yamaha Rhino but effected the whole industry. When a UTV rolls with someone wearing a seat belt it is common for their legs to go outside of the vehicle and get crushed. It happens with arms too but not as much as legs.

Yamaha had to recall almost 150K vehicles and install half doors to keep legs inside the vehicle during a crash. Other manufacturers quickly learned and I can't think of a UTV today that is sold without doors or nets. Most owners throw the nets away but the manufacturer covered their butt.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

Riding motorcycles is fun. Having to ride a motorcycle is crappy weather isn't fun. (I rode a bike year-around for 3 years) Proper gear made it tolerable but not enjoyable.

I have already met people who got both a small-displacement motorcycle and a Harley-Davidson Sportster. Doesn't sound like a wise decision, since the TCO of a Harley-Davidson often matches or even surpasses easily the one of a small car, but they were willing to show-off, so there is always a compromise.

[freebeard]

Rain - The FUV doesn't have doors so you still get wet in the rain if you don't wear waterproof gear
Fogged visors - It is a motorcycle so it still requires a helmet.
Bugs - yes the windshield blocks the bugs
Too hot - I'm hot behind the fairing on my motorcycle - I can only image being behind that huge windshield.

[begin IMHO]
It shed water pretty well at speed, crosswinds around town would be similar to waiting at a bus stop.

Do helmets require visors now?

Would want to ride one into a swarm of bees!

Sitting on an electric battery pack, you could have a water-chilled vest.
[/IMHO]

Arcimoto see the lawsuits coming. That's why it's an upper frame instead of a roll cage. I'd want an anti-intrusion pyramid on the left side of my 'upper frame'.

[Hersbird]

UTVs are 4 wheels and a steering wheel, so more like a car. An ATV with straddle seating and handle bars doesn't require a roll cage, or doors, because it's ridden not driven. The Arcimoto is one step closer to a motorcycle than an atv as it only has 3 wheels not 4. Same as a Can-am Spider. They put the roll cage on to make it safer than a Spider, but an Accord will always be way better.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Arcimoto see the lawsuits coming. That's why it's an upper frame instead of a roll cage. I'd want an anti-intrusion pyramid on the left side of my 'upper frame'.

Changing the name doesn't negate the risk. It seems odd not to learn from much larger company's legal challenges.

When I was a product manager for a line of UTVs our management didn't allow any of our media materials to show riders with helmets. Their logic was that by showing a helmet we admitted the vehicle was dangerous. That didn't stop the lawsuits. (This was when all the big manufacturers ALWAYS pictured riders with helmets anytime the vehicle was in motion.)

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

UTVs are 4 wheels and a steering wheel, so more like a car. An ATV with straddle seating and handle bars doesn't require a roll cage, or doors, because it's ridden not driven. The Arcimoto is one step closer to a motorcycle than an atv as it only has 3 wheels not 4. Same as a Can-am Spider. They put the roll cage on to make it safer than a Spider, but an Accord will always be way better.

Adding a seatbelt means the rider will stay with the vehicle instead of being thrown clear. That means you have to protect them. Arcimoto has the same injury risk to arms and legs as an UTV. (EDIT) There is case law today that shows what a manufacturer legally should do to help prevent crushing injuries to lower extremities. Having 3 wheels instead of 4 makes a FUV less stable and more likely to roll over - which adds to the risk and liability.

So same injury method but risk of it happening.

$5 for some nets seems to be a small price to pay to mitigate liability.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Once in a while I still see a Jeep CJ-5 without any door, half-door or safety net, most of them fitted with a ROPS bar. Even though what could work as a door sill is higher to the floor of the Jeep, which would render it at least not so likely to get the legs outside and crushed than in an UTV, it's somewhat pointless how so many people are reckless and then blame the manufacturers of a vehicle.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

UTVs are 4 wheels and a steering wheel, so more like a car.

In some countries such as Uruguay, they can be titled and registered as a car and driven on public roads.

[Hersbird]

Many states in the US an ATV or UTV can also be driven on the streets. Montana is one of them. Not uncommon to see. Some towns I would say there are more of them than traditional cars on the roads.

[freebeard]

Having 3 wheels instead of 4 makes a FUV less stable and more likely to roll over - which adds to the risk and liability.

Why do you say that? So long as the rear wheel trails behind the outside front wheel you're good to go.

A four wheel vehicle needs massive torsional rigidity (Except the Sears/Hercules buckboard). A four-legged chair wants a flat floor, a tripod stool is happy with dirt.


https://www.vintag.es/2016/08/buckmi...axion-car.html

[JSH]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Why do you say that? So long as the rear wheel trails behind the outside front wheel you're good to go.

Physics. Rollover resistance determined by the track and the height of the roll center. The narrowing the track or raising the roll center increases risk of rollover.

With a 4 wheel vehicle with equal track front and rear the roll over resistance is equal on the front and rear axles. With a trike roll-over resistance is zero on the end with one wheel. For a trike to say stable it is key to keep weight over the end with 2 wheels.

Traditional trikes with one wheel in front and two in the back are very prone to roll-over under braking. As the vehicle brakes entering a corner weight shifts to the front single wheel. The harder the braking the more weight shifts the more likely vehicle rolls.

Reverse trikes fix this by putting two wheels in front. The more braking the more weight shifts over the axle with 2 wheels and the more resistant to roll-over.

That is all great until the rear wheel loses traction, the vehicle spins and now the back is the front....

EDIT: For your stool example example do this experiment.

On the 4 legged stool lean back until you are on two legs and then lean side to side. Then move to your 3 legged stool, lean back onto one leg and lean side to side. Which one falls over first?