01-11-2025, 02:52 PM
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#221 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
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' high points '
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic
Ah yes; PTFE
I have never got into the science here. IIRC there where issues..?
BA forms that hard, chemically inert, self fixing, oxide layer that none of the other solid lubricants do.
So lets say you have this BO layer on your engine and 2 high points somewhere touch causing the oxide to be shorn off:
The oxide particle/s reacts with water in the oil forming BA again and the BA, with no metal surfaces left to react with, reacts with that same bare spot (sans high point) again.
Judging by the look of the oil alone: The BO layer formed really does stop corrosion.
The oil just refuses to go that dark, old colour.
In my experiments this worried me in that: "We are at 20 000km (IIRC) since the last oil change! I don't care how good the oil looks; now I'm changing it!'
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1) Any 'high points' ( asperities ) would have have already interacted in service during break-in, and worn each other down 'smooth,' before the boric oxide film was ever plated on.
2) As soon as the asperities were knocked off, oil would flow over their former locations to 'plate' the metals surface.
3) From then on, unless the engine was neglected or abused, at least boundary region lubrication would be separating opposing surfaces from actual contact, by definition.
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4) If your motor oil is not getting 'darker and nastier-looking', then it has lost its detergent and dispersant additive package, and is doomed to premature failure.
5) And regardless of what the oil's anti-wear additive capabilities are, all the other protective additives will technically be 'gone' by 7,500-miles of 'normal' driving, or whatever interval is recommended during the warranty period specified by the automaker.
6) After the warranty is expired, the automaker could care less how one treats their car. They're 'off the hook.'
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7) In the complete absence of boric oxide, the motor oil would already have an anti-corrosion ( acid buffering )/anti-oxidant ( carbon, gum, sludge, varnish ) / ant-wear ( ZDDP, Phosphates, acid phosphates, organic sulfur, chlorine, boron nitrogen ) additive package ( some will already contain 'boron' additives )/ anti-foaming / pour-point suppressants / viscosity-index improvers .
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Last edited by aerohead; 01-11-2025 at 03:58 PM..
Reason: add data
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01-12-2025, 11:02 AM
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#222 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead
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Tell us:
What have people got to lose by trying this in an engine that is about to be rebuilt anyway?
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01-12-2025, 12:01 PM
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#223 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
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Again: More for my own edification as to why this worked so well in all the engines I treated.
If anyone is finding these posts interesting; do let me know!
Large-scale Manufacturing of Nanoparticulate based Lubrication Additives for Improved Energy
Efficiency and Reduced Emissions.

"...One of the key additives, ZDDP, is used in almost all types of engine and other industrial lubricants due to its outstanding anti-wear, extreme pressure (EP), and anti-oxidation characteristics, especially under severe application conditions.
Without it, the durability and performance of these lubricants are severely impaired. ZDDP forms a highly durable and protective boundary film on most sliding surfaces and thus prevents micro-welding or seizure under severe loading conditions.
Another important additive is molybdenum dialkyl dithiocarbamate, or MoDTC, used primarily to achieve lower friction on sliding surfaces.
Previous research has shown that this additive results in the formation of a layered MoS2-like boundary film and thus provides much lower friction [3].
Some of the boron-based nanolubrication additives (i.e., boric acid and hexagonal boron nitride) being proposed here also have layered structures and can thus
provide low friction and wear to lubricated sliding surfaces.
The TOF-SIMS analysis provided critical information on the extent of tribochemical interactions that occurred during these sliding tests. The general observations from the TOF-SIMS studies were that, with the use of boric acid in partially formulated engine oils, much thicker and hence more protective boundary films had formed (which could explain the extreme resistance of these oils to wear and scuffing, see Table 3).
The protective boundary films consisted of large amounts of boron, but some zinc, sulfur, and phosphorus were also detected during these analyses, depending on the type of oil tested.
We believe that zinc, sulfur, and phosphorus are mostly coming from the ZDDP additive in the oil, but apparently, our boron-based additives are blending with these in a very synergistic and highly effective manner, i.e., making ZDDP function even better.
we investigated whether a hybrid nanolubrication approach involving the mixing of our boron-based additives with MoS 2-based nanolubricants might trigger additional beneficial effects, especially under severe tribological conditions.
Accordingly, we included MoS2-based nanolubricants to develop a hybrid boron-MoS2-based nanolubricant that might collectively provide superior lubricity over a broader range of test conditions.
A sub-contract was established with the University of Arkansas to pursue this approach. Specifically, the University of Arkansas participants blended and provided a series of nanolubricants that consisted of nanoparticles of MoS2 and boric acid in a carrier oil.
The tribological testing (as shown in Table 4) of these hybrid lubricants demonstrated desirable performance, as they together reduced friction considerably under severe sliding conditions in comparison to commercial lubricants without any nanoparticulates.
Thus, our joint work has confirmed that a hybrid lubrication approach might also provide significant benefits in terms of much improved friction and wear properties.
In an effort to understand the chemical nature of the protective boundary films that resulted from the hybrid nanolubricants, we performed comprehensive surface analytical studies on sliding surfaces.
The XPS analysis of the tribofilm in Fig. 23 revealed high concentrations of boron and
sulfur in the tribofilm. Also, the presence of molybdenum and oxygen was confirmed.
The Mo most likely came from the MoS2, since the Mo content of the steel sample was very low (i.e.less than 1 wt.%), while oxygen may have come from the boric acid or tribo-oxidation of MoS2 and/or sliding steel surfaces.
Moreover, we found some phosphorus within the sliding wear tracks, which may have been due to ZDDP additives in the commercial oil.
These surface studies further confirmed that hybrid nanolubricants form more durable low-friction and wear protective films and thus provide superior tribological performance.
In tests with fully formulated 75W90 gear oil, the signs of micropitting showed up after about 4 hours of testing and worsened after 15 hours (see Fig. 27).
However, in a repeat of the same tests with the same Valvoline gear oil blended with our boron-based lubrication additives, we could not detect any sign of micropit formation even after 15 hours of testing.

the level of noise recorded during testing of control 75W90 oil was much higher than that of the boron-additive-containing 75W90 oil. https://publications.anl.gov/anlpubs...neral%20(known.
Forgot to mention: Some very nice pics and graphs, so do follow the link.
Last edited by Logic; 01-23-2025 at 08:26 AM..
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01-13-2025, 02:08 AM
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#224 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
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I've only scanned this so far, but it seems to prove that BA does react with Al and form a surface layer.
Surface mechanism of the boron adsorption on alumina in aqueous solutions
The adsorption of boron (boric acid) from aqueous solutions on alumina has been
investigated at pH 8.0, I = 0.1 M NaClO 4, T = 22 ± 3˚C, and under normal atmospheric condi-
tions. The characterization of the adsorbed species was performed by Raman spectroscopy
and the spectroscopic speciation was assisted by theoretical DFT calculations. Evaluation of
the spectroscopic data points to the formation of inner-sphere surface complexes and indi-
cates the formation of two different types of adsorbed boron species. The theoretical calcula-
tions corroborate the spectroscopic data and indicate that at low boron concentration the
monodentate surface species dominates, whereas increased boron concentration favors the
formation of a bidentate surface species...
https://sci-hub.ru/10.1080/19443994.2013.764354
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01-13-2025, 11:19 AM
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#226 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
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' got to lose ? '
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic
Tell us:
What have people got to lose by trying this in an engine that is about to be rebuilt anyway?
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It's a fair question.
I went through my library and found materials on 'engine treatments' going back 72-years.
I'm going to 'study' all these materials before I make a call.
Side note: Color Service, in Denton, finally located a viscosimeter in Cincinnati, Ohio, $ 86.00 ( US ). They've ordered it, and I'm waiting on their call. I've had Erdemir's raw materials for a couple months and I'll finally be able to sort some things out on at least two of his experiments, since he was never transparent with his data.
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01-13-2025, 11:45 AM
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#227 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
Join Date: Jan 2008
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' partially formulated engine oil'..........'carrier oil'... 'severe'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic
Again: More for my own edification as to why this worked so well in all the engines I treated.
If anyone is finding these posts interesting; do let me know!
Large-scale Manufacturing of Nanoparticulate based Lubrication Additives for Improved Energy
Efficiency and Reduced Emissions.
"...One of the key additives, ZDDP, is used in almost all types of engine and other industrial lubricants due to its outstanding anti-wear, extreme pressure (EP), and anti-oxidation characteristics, especially under severe application conditions.
Without it, the durability and performance of these lubricants are severely impaired. ZDDP forms a highly durable and protective boundary film on most sliding surfaces and thus prevents micro-welding or seizure under severe loading conditions.
Another important additive is molybdenum dialkyl dithiocarbamate, or MoDTC, used primarily to achieve lower friction on sliding surfaces.
Previous research has shown that this additive results in the formation of a layered MoS2-like boundary film and thus provides much lower friction [3].
Some of the boron-based nanolubrication additives (i.e., boric acid and hexagonal boron nitride) being proposed here also have layered structures and can thus
provide low friction and wear to lubricated sliding surfaces.
The TOF-SIMS analysis provided critical information on the extent of tribochemical interactions that occurred during these sliding tests. The general observations from the TOF-SIMS studies were that, with the use of boric acid in partially formulated engine oils, much thicker and hence more protective boundary films had formed (which could explain the extreme resistance of these oils to wear and scuffing, see Table 3).
The protective boundary films consisted of large amounts of boron, but some zinc, sulfur, and phosphorus were also detected during these analyses, depending on the type of oil tested.
We believe that zinc, sulfur, and phosphorus are mostly coming from the ZDDP additive in the oil, but apparently, our boron-based additives are blending with these in a very synergistic and highly effective manner, i.e., making ZDDP function even better.
we investigated whether a hybrid nanolubrication approach involving the mixing of our boron-based additives with MoS 2-based nanolubricants might trigger additional beneficial effects, especially under severe tribological conditions.
Accordingly, we included MoS2-based nanolubricants to develop a hybrid boron-MoS2-based nanolubricant that might collectively provide superior lubricity over a broader range of test conditions.
A sub-contract was established with the University of Arkansas to pursue this approach. Specifically, the University of Arkansas participants blended and provided a series of nanolubricants that consisted of nanoparticles of MoS2 and boric acid in a carrier oil.
The tribological testing (as shown in Table 4) of these hybrid lubricants demonstrated desirable performance, as they together reduced friction considerably under severe sliding conditions in comparison to commercial lubricants without any nanoparticulates.
Thus, our joint work has confirmed that a hybrid lubrication approach might also provide significant benefits in terms of much improved friction and wear properties.
In an effort to understand the chemical nature of the protective boundary films that resulted from the hybrid nanolubricants, we performed comprehensive surface analytical studies on sliding surfaces.
The XPS analysis of the tribofilm in Fig. 23 revealed high concentrations of boron and
sulfur in the tribofilm. Also, the presence of molybdenum and oxygen was confirmed.
The Mo most likely came from the MoS2, since the Mo content of the steel sample was very low (i.e.less than 1 wt.%), while oxygen may have come from the boric acid or tribo-oxidation of MoS2 and/or sliding steel surfaces.
Moreover, we found some phosphorus within the sliding wear tracks, which may have been due to ZDDP additives in the commercial oil.
These surface studies further confirmed that hybrid nanolubricants form more durable low-friction and wear protective films and thus provide superior tribological performance.
In tests with fully formulated 75W90 gear oil, the signs of micropitting showed up after about 4 hours of testing and worsened after 15 hours (see Fig. 27).
However, in a repeat of the same tests with the same Valvoline gear oil blended with our boron-based lubrication additives, we could not detect any sign of micropit formation even after 15 hours of testing.
the level of noise recorded during testing of control 75W90 oil was much higher than that of the boron-additive-containing 75W90 oil. https://publications.anl.gov/anlpubs...neral%20(known.
Forgot to mention: Some very nice pics and graphs, so do follow the link.
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1) here again, they're not testing a commercial motor oil, and there's no mention of testing for chemical compatibility of additive packages which would be found in commercial motor oils; a violation of Dr. Erdemir's conditions.
2) they're interested in 'SEVERE' conditions in which 'high-point' might be achieved, not in 'NORMAL' operation.
3) in 'NORMAL' operation, at least a nanolayer of oil would be separating metal surfaces, boundary lubrication would be at play, with zero metal-to metal contact.
4) the 75W-90 gear oil testing is not germane to 'engine oils', as transmissions, transaxles, transfer cases, rear axle/differentials etc., are not subjected to the same conditions as are experienced within internal combustion engines.
5) we'll have a discussion in the future about 'how it worked so well' for you.
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01-13-2025, 12:05 PM
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#228 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
Join Date: Jan 2008
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' aqueous solution '..........' alumina '
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic
I've only scanned this so far, but it seems to prove that BA does react with Al and form a surface layer.
Surface mechanism of the boron adsorption on alumina in aqueous solutions
The adsorption of boron (boric acid) from aqueous solutions on alumina has been
investigated at pH 8.0, I = 0.1 M NaClO 4, T = 22 ± 3˚C, and under normal atmospheric condi-
tions. The characterization of the adsorbed species was performed by Raman spectroscopy
and the spectroscopic speciation was assisted by theoretical DFT calculations. Evaluation of
the spectroscopic data points to the formation of inner-sphere surface complexes and indi-
cates the formation of two different types of adsorbed boron species. The theoretical calcula-
tions corroborate the spectroscopic data and indicate that at low boron concentration the
monodentate surface species dominates, whereas increased boron concentration favors the
formation of a bidentate surface species...
https://sci-hub.ru/10.1080/19443994.2013.764354
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1) are you planning on filling the crankcase with water?
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2) is the 'alumina' from the alumina 'pin', from the 1990 ASTM, volume 3.02, Section 3, pps 391-395 Re: rotating-disc-steel / alumina hemispherical-tipped pin @ 3mm /second @ 22-25-degrees C ?
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3) from the Roach Criteria for acceptable engine wearing surfaces, opposing a steel surface:
-germanium
-silver
-cadmium
-indium
-tin
-antimony
-thallium
-lead
-bismuth
-I'm not seeing 'alumina'
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Last edited by aerohead; 01-13-2025 at 12:20 PM..
Reason: add data
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01-14-2025, 11:02 AM
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#229 (permalink)
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Master EcoModder
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: South Africa
Posts: 675
Thanks: 238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead
It's a fair question.
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Yes... it is.
And after a much longer time than usual; it remains unanswered.
 It must have caused much head scratching of many heads as to how best to avoid saying:
"Nothing"
Then there's this delay tactic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead
I went through my library and found materials on 'engine treatments' going back 72-years.
I'm going to 'study' all these materials before I make a call.
Side note: Color Service, in Denton, finally located a viscosimeter in Cincinnati, Ohio, $ 86.00 ( US ). They've ordered it, and I'm waiting on their call. I've had Erdemir's raw materials for a couple months and I'll finally be able to sort some things out on at least two of his experiments, since he was never transparent with his data.
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Delay till the question goes away?
or
Divert the question by getting me to ask the obvious:
"What's a viscosity test going to tell us?"
Everyone knows:
Mix a less viscous liquid with a control liquid of viscosity X and the viscosity will go down.
And visa-versa.
So what. I'm NOT asking.
BA is tried, tested and found to be very successful by ME. (and others)
I... know it works.
(Also by well respected tribology research institutes worldwide.
They know it works)
Apparently:
You have NOT tested it in an engine. Therefore you DO NOT know, for sure, if it works or not.
So:
Tell us:
What have people got to lose by trying this in an engine that is about to be rebuilt anyway?
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01-14-2025, 11:25 AM
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#230 (permalink)
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Somewhat crazed
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic
So:
Tell us:
What have people got to lose by trying this in an engine that is about to be rebuilt anyway?
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Explosive instantaneous disassembly?, view ports in the block? Siezing parts so solid they will not disassemble?
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
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