BORPower additive?

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

Any friction in an automobile will derive from hydrodynamic shearing forces within liquids, which is solely a function of viscosity.
There really isn't any surface friction from parts actually in physical contact. They're all separated and 'ski' on top of a wedge of lubricant separating the surfaces.
Some oils are presently at 'zero' viscosity upon cold start. They add only a fraction of a percent to economy or power.
The claims are extremely dubious.
Buyer beware!

Hmmm... true-ish for a well run in engine.
But for a piston to change direction it has to stop.

Then even run in engines that are constant rpm and almost always running (like the genset on the farm I grew up on) become old and smokey and worn out.
Most engines are restarted often.

Bearing surfaces under a microscope are not as flat as we would like.
Well; not till you look at surfaces with the Boric Acid on therm.
(see the research pics: Dr Ari Erdemir of Agronne National labs initially and a vast amount of followup research buy other research institutes)

The very 1st layer of Boric on a metal surface is a ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond that forms an extremely inert protective layer on the metal surface.
Subsequent layers resemble platelets more and more as you move away from the surface. Like microscopic playing cards sliding over each other. (ionicly bonded)

At some point you will encounter an old smokey worn engine that's about to be redone anyway and give this a try aerohead.
I cant wait for that day!

[Piotrsko]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Should that happen the result is galling and friction welding.

Yup should you ever be fortunate enough to loose oil pressure running on the interstate on a hot day you will end up with lightly welded internals. Might take a while to do that with modern stuff. Certified aircraft engines are tested to run for 30 minutes at 75% power on no oil pressure

Boric acid doesn't form some sort of very hard alloy/ carbide/ material on the bearing or mating surfaces?

[Logic]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

Boric acid doesn't form some sort of very hard alloy/ carbide/ material on the bearing or mating surfaces?

Yes it does:
1st layer is a ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond and complete resistance to the acids etc formed in old oil.

Subsequent layers transition from that to ironically bonded micro platelets akin to micro playing cards sliding over each other.
The layer is around 0.5 microns thick in total.

The coefficient of friction numbers are crazy low. Well into the 'Too good to be true' range. Something like 70X more slippery than steel-oil-steel IIRC.

So my initial test of a heaped tablespoon of Boric Acid, stirred into a coffee mug of boiling water went into a properly knackered engine where you couldn't see behind you for smoke and max speed was around 80, at which point it felt frighteningly like the engine was about to vibrate itself too destruction.

I poured it into the pre warmed engine and took off immediately.
I took it very easy as I knew the emulsion was doing nothing for oil thickness.
About 10km later I could feel the engine smooth out and a look in the rearview mirror revealed that I could see behind me once again.

Gobsmaked and in a state of shock and awe I gave it the gas and discovered that the engine had come back to life, was smooth as can be, and happily went up to a bit over the original top speed of the car.
(It was a little 1200, 4 speed Toyota that maxed out at 140KM/h. (rpm limited))

After that it went into my 2L Mazda and Dads 728 BMW etc-etc. all to great effect.
Except:
The Isuzu truck was no fun on an early morning winter trip as the damn engine just wouldn't warm up to the point where the heater would work!

NB!!!
VWs use a very fine sieve on the oil pump pickup.
The Boric ceramic coating gets in under the sludge that's inevitable in any engine fed a mixture of oil brands and the loosened sludge blocks the pickup, requiring one to drop the sump and clean the sieve.

[freebeard]

Subsequent layers transition from that to ironically bonded micro platelets akin to micro playing cards sliding over each other.

Ionic or literally ironic??

That's for including the boxer four. Cleaning the screen is a periodic maintenance anyway.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Ionic or literally ironic??

That's for including the boxer four. Cleaning the screen is a periodic maintenance anyway.

Ionic
Same as Molybdenum Disulphide, but I don't think MoS2 forms a protective ceramic layer on the metal surface and does not have the crazy low coefficient of friction of Boric Acid.
I havent researched it nearly as much as H3BO3.


The above results demonstrate that with a mixture of boric acid and an oil lubricant, the friction coefficients are reduced by 10 to over 1000% below those of the unmixed lubricant itself. The wear rates of pins are reduced by factors of 50 to 100 below those of pins tested in unmixed oil itself.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5431830A/en

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

Any friction in an automobile will derive from hydrodynamic shearing forces within liquids, which is solely a function of viscosity.
There really isn't any surface friction from parts actually in physical contact. They're all separated and 'ski' on top of a wedge of lubricant separating the surfaces.
Some oils are presently at 'zero' viscosity upon cold start. They add only a fraction of a percent to economy or power.
The claims are extremely dubious.
Buyer beware!

"... In the diagram above, the contact areas where losses occur due to friction are shown in yellow. The most significant energy losses occur around the piston (at approximately 45% of [friction] losses); followed by the links between the connecting rod, crankshaft and cylinder block (approximately 30%); and around the valves and their actuating system (approximately 10%)...
...around 15% less fuel consumption..."
https://theconversation.com/how-cars...ir-fuel-197752

I say again:
Want an easy way to save fuel:
Boil a cup of water and stir in a heaped tablespoon of Boric Acid (NOT Boracic)
Add that to a warmed up engine's oil and immediately do around 10km of sedate driving.
Oil should be at the full level: Any excess water will boil off quickly, taking the level back to where it was before.

When you notice the engine smooth out; you're good to go.

Gearbox:
Works well here too (at lower doses) BUT:
The syncro rings in a gearbox rely on friction to get the gears spinning at the same speed so they don't grate.
Those that have/can drive a manual without a clutch wont have a problem. Basically you have to rev match and/or apply pressure to the reqd gear's syncro for a bit longer before pushing the gear home.
Or add only very little.

Diff:
Works very well here too (at lower doses) BUT:
Limited Slip Differentials rely on friction to work, so your limited slip will become a LOT less limited.
Limited Slip Differentials are only useful in very enthusiastic driving. If you don't know what a LS Diff is; you don't need one and probably don't have one.
(Sorts out Diff Whine)

Wheel Bearing grease:
Requires less water to Boric Acid ratio to make a paste of grease-like consistency that will mix well with the grease.

Volkswagens: (Golf, Jetta, etc)
Have a very fine mesh over the oil pump pickup.
If you have been adding any old oil brand to the engine, the various additives have formed a sludge thats attached to the engine interior.
That sludge comes loose thx to the Boric Acid and will block the fine seive.

Using BA in these engines involves dropping the sump more than once to clean the mess out, and/or replacing the fine mesh with a courser mesh.

Very old smokey engines:
Your oil pressure will be down due to excessive wear in the main etc pressure fed bearings.
The Boric Acid + Boiling Water mix will temporarily thin the oil and could lead to 'oil pressure too low' issues.
Here you need to add a quarter cup of BA at a time a drive to get it boiled off between adding more.

If you're thinking of shouting Unicorn:
Good! I look forward to it!
We can play a game:
For every peer reviewed published research paper I post, saying this works; you post one saying it doesn't. OK?
I'll be starting off with the studies done by the inventors of this; Argonne National Labs, so do come prepared.

I don't want to mess up my oil chemistry:
You've heard the saying: "Oil and water don't mix.."
That's correct: They form an emulsion of tiny droplets of water in the oil.
With BA added; said droplets react with and coat the metal surfaces and any left over water simply boils off.
ie: Your oil's chemistry is not changed because what you're adding does not dissolve into the oil.

If you're uncomfortable with adding water to your oil: NB that for every liter of fuel burned your engine produces about a liter of water.
A lot of that goes past the piston rings , so there's already a substantial amount of water in your engine oil. Water in which various mild acids, also formed during combustion, are dissolved.
I suggest an immediate emergency oil change, then never starting the car ever again!

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

Hmmm... true-ish for a well run in engine.
But for a piston to change direction it has to stop.

Then even run in engines that are constant rpm and almost always running (like the genset on the farm I grew up on) become old and smokey and worn out.
Most engines are restarted often.

Bearing surfaces under a microscope are not as flat as we would like.
Well; not till you look at surfaces with the Boric Acid on therm.
(see the research pics: Dr Ari Erdemir of Agronne National labs initially and a vast amount of followup research buy other research institutes)

The very 1st layer of Boric on a metal surface is a ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond that forms an extremely inert protective layer on the metal surface.
Subsequent layers resemble platelets more and more as you move away from the surface. Like microscopic playing cards sliding over each other. (ionicly bonded)

At some point you will encounter an old smokey worn engine that's about to be redone anyway and give this a try aerohead.
I cant wait for that day!

I'll hold what I got.
I took auto shop all the way through high school, an advanced engine course at a junior college, taught by a Volkswagen master mechanic in California, and 'never' were fuel or oil additives recommended, quite the contrary.
In college, through the SAE Journals and Transactions I finally learned about 'Tribology' the science of 'lubrication,' of which 'facts' never aligned with alleged claims made by 'additive carnival barkers'.
The only 'friction' an engine experiences is solely to do to viscous shearing effects directly associated with oil viscosity, exactly as with aerodynamic 'friction drag' occurring within a turbulent boundary layer because of air viscosity.
Oil changes based upon API recommendations will prolong engine life as long as possible ( I'm at 437,000 miles so far with 'Spirit'. I've been told to expect 1,000,000-miles if I maintain preventive maintenance ).
I'll let you know when the BOLT begins belching blue smoke.

[freebeard]

for every liter of fuel burned your engine produces about a liter of water.
A lot of that goes past the piston rings

Hyperbole much?

adpistonring.com: Piston Ring Joint Configuration

The butt cut used in automotive applications is least effective. a step cut or sure-seal joint for the piston ring is better. The tri-lap seal is used for steam.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

I'll hold what I got.
I took auto shop all the way through high school, an advanced engine course at a junior college, taught by a Volkswagen master mechanic in California, and 'never' were fuel or oil additives recommended, quite the contrary.
In college, through the SAE Journals and Transactions I finally learned about 'Tribology' the science of 'lubrication,' of which 'facts' never aligned with alleged claims made by 'additive carnival barkers'.
The only 'friction' an engine experiences is solely to do to viscous shearing effects directly associated with oil viscosity, exactly as with aerodynamic 'friction drag' occurring within a turbulent boundary layer because of air viscosity.
Oil changes based upon API recommendations will prolong engine life as long as possible ( I'm at 437,000 miles so far with 'Spirit'. I've been told to expect 1,000,000-miles if I maintain preventive maintenance ).
I'll let you know when the BOLT begins belching blue smoke.

There were world renowned engineers around saying heavier than air flight was impossible just before the Wright Brothers' first flight.

Statistically a new fantastic new idea, that seems too good to be true, comes around about once every 30 years.
I believe, from experience, that this is one.
Why else would I risk my rep here? It's not like I make anything from tharing my experience with Boric Acid...

But I get it; not everyone likes to, or is even capable of, changing their minds when presented with new facts...

Here's a fact: There's metal participles attached to the magnet in the engine sump plug that everyone cleans off every time they change the oil.
IF
There's no metal to metal contact between engine bearing surfaces
THEN
Where do these particles come from?
Teleportation??!

Yes sure the bearing surface mostly float over each other... mostly...
What would happen to their ability to float if the gap between them was smaller and smoother on a microscopic level?

What would happen if the acids that form in old engine oil could not pit bearing surfaces because there was a chemically inert ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond attached to said surface?

I NB you haven't taken up the challenge of finding peer reviewed, published, research saying Boric Acid in oil DOES NOT work.
Why is that..?
I have 25 papers ready to go in my favorites so far. Lets play!

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Hyperbole much?

adpistonring.com: Piston Ring Joint Configuration

The butt cut used in automotive applications is least effective. a step cut or sure-seal joint for the piston ring is better. The tri-lap seal is used for steam.

yes; much hyperbole.

Only a very small amount of the water formed during combustion will get past the piston rings on each power (and exhaust) stroke.
But in my defense; there are a good many power strokes in the average commute.
A 4 cylinder engine at say 4000 rpm has 4000 a minute, or 240 000 an hour.
Then there's condensation and bigger ring gaps in cold engines and all that.

I'll look through these later, but we both know that the water and thus acids formed in an engine sump is an issue.
Nice to turn it to an advantage in this case...
https://www.google.com/search?client...l+acids+formed