BORPower additive?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

As I advise dissolving the Boric Acid in hot water and adding it to a hot engine it actually makes no difference to the topic at hand.

From Argonne National Labs who works with the US govt and NASA etc, not some student thesis:

The above results demonstrate that with a mixture of boric acid and an oil lubricant, the friction coefficients are reduced by 10 to over 1000% below those of the unmixed lubricant itself. The wear rates of pins are reduced by factors of 50 to 100 below those of pins tested in unmixed oil itself
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5431830A/en

That's what 1st got my attention and why I studied BA.
Then an old smokey engine came along and I tried it.
That car continued operating for years after till it was stolen.
Now I believe in BA and am trying to share.

Perhaps I should start a new topic:
Looking for 'Old Smokey' (car/engine) for experiment.

* Personally, I've never 'seen' piston pin wear, only piston pin, bronze 'bushing' wear, on the small end of connecting rods.
* A 'smoky' engine, suffering from stuck piston rings can, sometimes be 'freed', simply with an oil change, because of the presence of the full detergent additive package within the 'new' motor oil.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

There was doubt as to how much water, formed during combustion, got past rings into stock oil.
Fact is; it's a substantial amount. So much so that there is research on the acids formed from combustion byproducts dissolved in said water.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44722874
https://www.spectrosci.com/knowledge...e-oil-analysis
https://www.azomining.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1423

But lets say someone came up with a hypothetical high heat hydraulic like seal that never leaked anything to under the piston.
IF
I dissolve Boric Oxide in water and add it to the engine BELOW said seal.
THEN
How is the seal pertinent to the lubrication and surface protection abilities of BA on the other side of said seal..?

As for a completely clean, same as before, magnet on a sump plug:
Yes they are much cleaner once the engine is run in, but there's always a small amount of very fine particles on the sump plug magnets of an engine with std engine oil.
I looks like a grey/er layer with a sheen in sunlight.

I rebuilt my 1st engine at the age of 10 or 11, so no; I DO NOT consider a sump plug magnet that looks like a school experiment with iron filings normal wear.
(Makes me wonder what exactly your opinion of me is..? And, as respect is mutual; why you should expect mine of you to be any better..?)

* 'Water' cannot exist within the combustion chamber during oxidation of the charge.
* 'Water vapor' does exist, created by the hydrogen in the long chain hydrocarbon molecule combining with oxygen from the atmosphere.
* The only way it can make it to the crankcase, to compromise the engine oil, is by 'blowby' past the compression rings and oil-control ring.
* Whenever the crankcase temperature is at, or below the 'dewpoint' of the water vapor-charged gases, the water vapor will condense into liquid water, which on wintry days you'll see 'draining' out of the tailpipe, and, or, forming visible 'clouds.'
* Other by-products of combustion can possess a pH low enough to be acidic, which can eat away at certain metallic surface treatments. This is one reason for the oil change interval recommendation.
* Properly functioning piston rings exhibit a magnitude of blowby that is statistically meaningless.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

* Personally, I've never 'seen' piston pin wear, only piston pin, bronze 'bushing' wear, on the small end of connecting rods.
* A 'smoky' engine, suffering from stuck piston rings can, sometimes be 'freed', simply with an oil change, because of the presence of the full detergent additive package within the 'new' motor oil.

In the labs that study lubrication they use a Pin on Disk device to test the lubricants.
Part of the test is to put the post test, scratched disk under a microscope and pear at it intently.

This is Proof that:
Without actually reading the NEW FACTS presented to you, (LINKED for your convenience); any pre conceived opinions you may have are in fact about as useful as a one armed boxer with an itchy arse!

Also a 'Don't wanna know' type opinion hurts you more than it does the presenter of the idea.
HowTF am I, or anyone, supposed to give any weight whatsoever to anything you have to say on this subject if you insist on remaining ignorant of the new facts presented..?

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

* 'Water' cannot exist within the combustion chamber during oxidation of the charge.

So your opinion of me is so low that you believe, I believe there to be water, rather than steam and/or water vapour present in the combustion chamber during the power stroke?
LOL!

Originally Posted by aerohead

* 'Water vapor' does exist, created by the hydrogen in the long chain hydrocarbon molecule combining with oxygen from the atmosphere.

Well thx for clearing that up for me aerohead.
I'd never have guessed that the H in HCs combines with the O2 in air to form water in one form or another in an engine otherwise!

Originally Posted by aerohead

* The only way it can make it to the crankcase, to compromise the engine oil, is by 'blowby' past the compression rings and oil-control ring.

No!? What about teleportation!? As in "Beam me down Scotty!" I saw it in Star Trek so it's definitely possible!

Originally Posted by aerohead

* Whenever the crankcase temperature is at, or below the 'dewpoint' of the water vapor-charged gases, the water vapor will condense into liquid water, which on wintry days you'll see 'draining' out of the tailpipe, and, or, forming visible 'clouds.'

The crankcase is sealingly and slidingly disconnected from the crankcase by said piston rings.

The crankcase breather of most all engines exhausts into the engine intake, not the exhaust.

So the only way for crankcase water to end up in the exhaust is by;

• boiling/evaporating out of the oil-water emulsion in the crankcase and leaving via the crankcase breather system, into the intake.
• then going through the engine with the intake mixture and being blown out the exhaust valves and ultimately the tailpipe.

If
the amount of water in the crankcase is very small, as asserted, wouldn't the bulk of the water coming out the exhaust be from the combining of H and O as you asserted earlier..?

The fact that the steam has cooled to below the condensation point on cold mornings merely makes the water formed during combustion visible on cold mornings.
It's still there during the heat of a summer day, you just don't see it because it hasn't condensed at or around the point of leaving the tailpipe.

Originally Posted by aerohead

* Other by-products of combustion can possess a pH low enough to be acidic, which can eat away at certain metallic surface treatments. This is one reason for the oil change interval recommendation.

Quite so!
Now suppose you're a mad scientist like me. (NOT to be confused with a stupid scientist... )
Being a scientist ; you discover that by dissolving a certain substance (Boric Oxide say) in the water before putting it in contact with metals has the following effects:

• The acid to forms an extremely hard (85% the hardness of diamond), extremely wear resistant ceramic surface on the metal.
• Said ceramic surface is also extremely resistant to attack by other acids, effectively shielding the metal underneath from any further attack by them, stopping the erosion normally seen by the acids formed from combustion in its tracks, including further attack by your acid itself.
• Said surface transitions from this hard ceramic layer to a layer with 70X less friction than previous lubricants at a distance of around 0.5 microns form the ceramic side.

What do you do with your new found discovery?
Do you decide that;

• Despite the evidence you have carefully collected by following research protocols and seen with your own eyes, the results are too good to be true and therefore to be dismissed without another thought?
• Come to the conclusion that you have stumbled upon a major discovery that will change the lubrication industry for ever... IF you can convince engine etc makers that they want to produce engines etc that never wear out, cutting their profits to a 10th of what they currently are.

Originally Posted by aerohead

* Properly functioning piston rings exhibit a magnitude of blowby that is statistically meaningless.

Yet the piping used in crankcase breather systems is never smaller than an ID of around 6mm. Why not use 'statistically insignificant' oil pressure gauge pipe with an ID of under 0.5 mm instead? It'll be cheaper...

The blowby per stroke is 'statistically insignificant', but considering there are around 3000 of them every minute in your running car things may add up to the point where you want to change the oil quite often..?

You would do well to stop treating me like an idiot. What does this look like to other forum members..?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

In the labs that study lubrication they use a Pin on Disk device to test the lubricants.
Part of the test is to put the post test, scratched disk under a microscope and pear at it intently.

This is Proof that:
Without actually reading the NEW FACTS presented to you, (LINKED for your convenience); any pre conceived opinions you may have are in fact about as useful as a one armed boxer with an itchy arse!

Also a 'Don't wanna know' type opinion hurts you more than it does the presenter of the idea.
HowTF am I, or anyone, supposed to give any weight whatsoever to anything you have to say on this subject if you insist on remaining ignorant of the new facts presented..?

1) What sort of 'lubricants' would they be testing that way?
2) I'm not experiencing that any 'proof' of lubrication germane to automotive engines is in any way being conducted. Sex Toys?
3) I don't argue with opinions.
4) I argue with what I've observed, beginning since my dad overhauled our lawnmower's Briggs & Stratton engine when I was about 5-years old, overhauling go-kart and mini-bile engines in junior high, a Morris Minor 1000, and Rambler American in high school, an engine rebuilding course taught by a Volkswagen Master Mechanic at Lancaster, California's Junior College while in the Air Force, then through college, building Volkswagen engines, and reading papers on tribology in the SAE Journals and Transactions in the Texas Tech University Library, then SAE Journals and Transactions at the Dallas Public Library, written by the career tribologists involved in automotive engine design, around the world.
5) Do you have a source of tribological bona fides that exceeds the level of expertise represented by members of the Society of Automotive Engineers? I'm all ears!

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

So your opinion of me is so low that you believe, I believe there to be water, rather than steam and/or water vapour present in the combustion chamber during the power stroke?
LOL!


Well thx for clearing that up for me aerohead.
I'd never have guessed that the H in HCs combines with the O2 in air to form water in one form or another in an engine otherwise!


No!? What about teleportation!? As in "Beam me down Scotty!" I saw it in Star Trek so it's definitely possible!


The crankcase is sealingly and slidingly disconnected from the crankcase by said piston rings.

The crankcase breather of most all engines exhausts into the engine intake, not the exhaust.

So the only way for crankcase water to end up in the exhaust is by;

• boiling/evaporating out of the oil-water emulsion in the crankcase and leaving via the crankcase breather system, into the intake.
• then going through the engine with the intake mixture and being blown out the exhaust valves and ultimately the tailpipe.

If
the amount of water in the crankcase is very small, as asserted, wouldn't the bulk of the water coming out the exhaust be from the combining of H and O as you asserted earlier..?

The fact that the steam has cooled to below the condensation point on cold mornings merely makes the water formed during combustion visible on cold mornings.
It's still there during the heat of a summer day, you just don't see it because it hasn't condensed at or around the point of leaving the tailpipe.



Quite so!
Now suppose you're a mad scientist like me. (NOT to be confused with a stupid scientist... )
Being a scientist ; you discover that by dissolving a certain substance (Boric Oxide say) in the water before putting it in contact with metals has the following effects:

• The acid to forms an extremely hard (85% the hardness of diamond), extremely wear resistant ceramic surface on the metal.
• Said ceramic surface is also extremely resistant to attack by other acids, effectively shielding the metal underneath from any further attack by them, stopping the erosion normally seen by the acids formed from combustion in its tracks, including further attack by your acid itself.
• Said surface transitions from this hard ceramic layer to a layer with 70X less friction than previous lubricants at a distance of around 0.5 microns form the ceramic side.

What do you do with your new found discovery?
Do you decide that;

• Despite the evidence you have carefully collected by following research protocols and seen with your own eyes, the results are too good to be true and therefore to be dismissed without another thought?
• Come to the conclusion that you have stumbled upon a major discovery that will change the lubrication industry for ever... IF you can convince engine etc makers that they want to produce engines etc that never wear out, cutting their profits to a 10th of what they currently are.

Yet the piping used in crankcase breather systems is never smaller than an ID of around 6mm. Why not use 'statistically insignificant' oil pressure gauge pipe with an ID of under 0.5 mm instead? It'll be cheaper...

The blowby per stroke is 'statistically insignificant', but considering there are around 3000 of them every minute in your running car things may add up to the point where you want to change the oil quite often..?

You would do well to stop treating me like an idiot. What does this look like to other forum members..?

1) All cylinder bore bottom openings share the same space as the crankcase.
2) During combustion, the pressure of the exploding charge and it's gases are available to crankcase if piston ring blowby exists.
3) The water vapor in the gases will condense into liquid water upon experiencing dewpoint temperature, creating 'sludge.'
4) Your writing lacks the specificity of the 'technical writing' which would never leave the reader wondering what level of command of the topic you were in possession of.
5) Whether you realize it or not, your arguments seem to be a form of 'disputation', rather than logic, in which getting to the 'facts' is not the real premise, just 'winning' the argument, at all cost.
6) Yes, the positive crankcase ventilation system ( PCV valve ) dumps into the airbox, ahead of the air cleaner.
7) If crankcase 'water' is entering the exhaust, it's only pathway will be via the PCV valve, as water vapor.
8) Yes, the exhaust stroke evacuates the waste gases, which is mostly Nitrogen, plus water vapor, and incomplete products of combustion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9) Okay, you've dissolved 'Boric Oxide'? or 'Boric Acid' in water, to create a water-soluble solution. Need clarification before we proceed.
( the internet is ambiguous about this ).

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Logic

You would do well to stop treating me like an idiot. What does this look like to other forum members..?

He may be a curmudgeon, but he's our curmudgeon. You should have seen the epic battle with Julian Edgar, that ended with a banning.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

1) What sort of 'lubricants' would they be testing that way?
2) I'm not experiencing that any 'proof' of lubrication germane to automotive engines is in any way being conducted. Sex Toys?
3) I don't argue with opinions.
4) I argue with what I've observed, beginning since my dad overhauled our lawnmower's Briggs & Stratton engine when I was about 5-years old, overhauling go-kart and mini-bile engines in junior high, a Morris Minor 1000, and Rambler American in high school, an engine rebuilding course taught by a Volkswagen Master Mechanic at Lancaster, California's Junior College while in the Air Force, then through college, building Volkswagen engines, and reading papers on tribology in the SAE Journals and Transactions in the Texas Tech University Library, then SAE Journals and Transactions at the Dallas Public Library, written by the career tribologists involved in automotive engine design, around the world.
5) Do you have a source of tribological bona fides that exceeds the level of expertise represented by members of the Society of Automotive Engineers? I'm all ears!

https://www.tribonet.org/wiki/pin-on-disk-test/

5:
No I don't.
Who finances said Society?
Is it likely to be car manufactures that profit from the sale of engines, gearboxes, drivetrains etc?
All the tings you'd want to wear out so you can sell more?

While the research and the how it works is available for all to research; what holds you back from doing so?
I don't see one reference to scientific research on this subject from you.
Not one in all your posts here, while I have many.
Why??
Why not back up your arguments with SCIENCE if you "don't argue opinions"???
That would beat contradicting yourself!

Perhaps the the other personal experiences I have been trying to avoid in favour of the science actually hold more weight to you?
Here are 29 pages of positive forum posts by people... shall we say; more open minded than those on this forum who have added Boric Oxide to their engines:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ngine-oil.html

Your Boric Oxide - Boric Acid question:
Boric Oxide is a very hygroscopic substance.
See "Stability" here:
https://www.borax.com/BoraxCorp/medi...e.pdf?ext=.pdf
So when Boric Oxide is exposed to the atmosphere a lot of it turns into Boric Acid.

B2O3 + 3H2O → 2H3BO3

Because of this the 2 terms are often used interchangeably throughout the literature on Boric Oxide/Acid.
But as I researched this, I know its the Acid.

You will note that in the Team BHP forums everyone was adding Boric Oxide powder, without water, to engines etc.
They saw results after a long time, not within 10 KM as I did with (hot: more suluble) water also added.

The reason for this is simple:
I did the research and therefor knew that it was in fact the Acid and not the Oxide that is the lubricant, while they were lucky that there is in fact the argued water in engine oil for the oxide to react with to form the desired acid/lubricant.


It seems the issue here is that you put no weight in my research ability.
That's perfectly understandable given that you don't know me and only 1 in 20 people have an IQ of over 120 and less than that do any research.

But that will change. Slowly. Grudgingly.
But, if you read my links, it will change.
That there is the only reason I bother to take the time to argue/debate with you.


(NB that I am aware of the tactic of goading people into saying something bannable on forums as a means of getting rid of them for whatever personal reasons.
That's no way win a debate... )

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

https://www.tribonet.org/wiki/pin-on-disk-test/

5:
No I don't.
Who finances said Society?
Is it likely to be car manufactures that profit from the sale of engines, gearboxes, drivetrains etc?
All the tings you'd want to wear out so you can sell more?

While the research and the how it works is available for all to research; what holds you back from doing so?
I don't see one reference to scientific research on this subject from you.
Not one in all your posts here, while I have many.
Why??
Why not back up your arguments with SCIENCE if you "don't argue opinions"???
That would beat contradicting yourself!

Perhaps the the other personal experiences I have been trying to avoid in favour of the science actually hold more weight to you?
Here are 29 pages of positive forum posts by people... shall we say; more open minded than those on this forum who have added Boric Oxide to their engines:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ngine-oil.html

Your Boric Oxide - Boric Acid question:
Boric Oxide is a very hygroscopic substance.
See "Stability" here:
https://www.borax.com/BoraxCorp/medi...e.pdf?ext=.pdf
So when Boric Oxide is exposed to the atmosphere a lot of it turns into Boric Acid.

B2O3 + 3H2O → 2H3BO3

Because of this the 2 terms are often used interchangeably throughout the literature on Boric Oxide/Acid.
But as I researched this, I know its the Acid.

You will note that in the Team BHP forums everyone was adding Boric Oxide powder, without water, to engines etc.
They saw results after a long time, not within 10 KM as I did with (hot: more suluble) water also added.

The reason for this is simple:
I did the research and therefor knew that it was in fact the Acid and not the Oxide that is the lubricant, while they were lucky that there is in fact the argued water in engine oil for the oxide to react with to form the desired acid/lubricant.


It seems the issue here is that you put no weight in my research ability.
That's perfectly understandable given that you don't know me and only 1 in 20 people have an IQ of over 120 and less than that do any research.

But that will change. Slowly. Grudgingly.
But, if you read my links, it will change.
That there is the only reason I bother to take the time to argue/debate with you.


(NB that I am aware of the tactic of goading people into saying something bannable on forums as a means of getting rid of them for whatever personal reasons.
That's no way win a debate... )

1) The 'pin-on-a-disk' method is not an analogue for an automobile engine's pressurized lubrication system. It's a logic fail.
2) For 'finetuning', and everyone else at 'TEAM-BHP-COM' this fact appears to be an unknown - unknown, with potentially-disastrous consequences.
3) A look at SAE International's website would be far more efficient for you, rather than having me 'tell' you what you can learn on your own.
4) I refuse to speculate on what motivates SAE members and contributors, or why you would pre-judge, and presume some nefarious conspiracy, based totally on ignorance of your own making. Certainly, your multinational corporation produces nothing but high-value products, immune to the need for replacement parts or service.
5) I didn't recognize any 'research', with respect to boric acid. No adherence to established test methodologies or practices. No instrumentation. No conditions. No real data, only anecdotal comments. Nobody actually understands how an automotive lubrication system operates.
6) The claim of up to 80% friction reduction is a fantasy.
7) Same for a 15% mpg improvement.
8) Tell me how engine noise was quantified.
9A) Tell me how a 5% temperature reduction was quantified.
9B) 5% more ''smoother.' ( SMOOTH-O-METER ? )
10) A 10% power increase is impossible.
11) How could this 'research' be duplicated by anyone else?
12) You've mis-quoted and mis-characterized the contents of the original reporting.
13) You're advocating that 'water' be poured into the crankcase of an automotive engine.
14) Boric 'Acid' and Boric 'Oxide' are used interchangeably.
15) Over 1,600-km of driving, 'nothing' will change in the outside environment, that might influence performance observations.
16) Mark Weatherill's failure to see any benefit to differential, or wheel bearing grease means 'nothing'?
17) 'Nothing' happened in your 10-km observation, that can't be explained by your improper test methodology, but you'd never know it since it never entered your mind that ' J1082-' Fuel Economy Measurements - Road Test Procedure,' SAE Recommended Practice, SAE Handbook, published annually, might exist in the real world.
18) ' finetuning's reporting gives powdered boric acid added directly to the motor oil, which is 'plated out' on the engine's surfaces, which can be 'washed off' with water. The 'oxide' has 85% the hardness of diamond. It's responsible for the friction reduction ( impossible ).
19) He never reported 'fuel economy.' Something of interest here at EcoModder.com.
20) As his mileage accrues over time, he witnesses improved performance ( which could be explained by dozens of phenomena, none requiring the invocation of 'Boron' as the sole attribution.
21) Have you tested your water/ Boric acid solution for compatibility with:
-Alkylated styrene polymers
-Alkalines
-Alkylpolyamides
-Antimony
-Barium
-Bismuth
-Boron-nitrogen compounds
-Butylene polymers
-Cadmium
-Calcium
-Chlorine
-Chrome
-Copolymers
-Germanium
-Indium
-Lead
-Magnesium
-Methacrylate polymers
-Molybdenum disulfide
-Organic Sulfur
-Parafin
-'Paraflow'
-Phosphides
-Phosphorous
-Polyphaolefin ( PAO ) 2.5 synthetic, Group-IV, base oils
-Polymerized olefins
-Polymerized isoolefins
-Polymethacrylate polymers
-Silver
-Sulfides
-Sulfur
-Thallium
-Tin
-Zinc dialkylphoshorodithioate
-Zinc dialkyldithophosphate
-Zinc dithiophosphate
-Antioxidant & Anticorrosives
-Anti-Wear agents
-Detergent-Dispersant packages
-Extreme-Pressure additives
-Foam Inhibitors
-Friction Modifiers
-Oiliness Film Strength agents
-Pour point depressant packages
-Stable Colloid additives
-Viscosity-index improvers


22) Do you know that arbitrarily altering the surface finish ( By chemical plating ) of OEM-specified components can absolutely destroy their capacity to maintain an oil film lubricated surface?
23) Mumbai, Mahasashta, India has four world-class engineering colleges. Perhaps 'finetuning' may stumble onto one of their campus libraries, where he/she can get a look at real automotive technology.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

It claims to reduce friction.

It can only raise power by 10% if engines now waste at least 10% of their power to friction at WOT. Which is not the case for almost any engine.
It can only raise fuel efficiency by 15% if engines without it waste at least 15% to friction under light load. Don't think so.

Their claims are extraordinary, but there is no scientific proof for that.
They do provide an angry looking cat and a lot of boll power though.

Wikipedia makes no mention of boron in lubrication appliances, but boron is used in some abrasive materials. Hmmm. Something rhymes.

Pursuit for Better Fuel Economy
Reducing Engine Friction Helps Maxing out Miles per Gallon
"...In an internal combustion engine, estimat-
ed 10–20% energy is lost due to friction..."

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...X2RpcmVjdCJ9fQ

Friction Modelling for Internal Combustion Engines
D. Dowson, C.M. Taylor and Lisheng Yang
Institute of Tribology, Department of Mechanical Engineering, The University of Leeds, Leeds, LS2 9JT,
United Kingdom.

"...It is well known that only about 12% of the
energy input to an automobile engine is made
available as propulsive energy to overcome tyre
friction and aerodynamic drag [ 1,2]. The indicated
power of about 40%, obtained after deducting the
losses associated with cylinder cooling (.: 30%) and
the exhaust gases (= 30%), is further reduced to an
engine brake power of about 25% due to air
pumping in the engine (=3-6'%0) and friction losses
in the tribological components such as the bearings,
valve train and piston assemblies (~12-9%).It is the
latter quantities that are the subject of this paper
and although they typically represents only about
9% of the initial energy release, they do account for
some 30%-40% of the all important engine brake
power.


Ok, so lets talk about these guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1tYaX-tpec

Who are they..? anl.gov... In the USA.

https://www.anl.gov/

https://www.anl.gov/topic/success-story

These are the people who did and published the initial studies on the tribological properties
of Boric Acid in engine oil etc...

Do look them up!
Decide if they seem like the people who publish BS?

Sometimes during a lifetime new inventions come out.
Fire, the wheel, iron, engines electricity, computers, etc-etc all did.

When someone like them say; this stuff REALLY reduces friction, its like someone saying; this wire makes electricity when you wave magnets at it.
WhoTF woulda believed that!?

Freshly cut aluminum will quickly form a thin layer of aluminum oxide on the newly exposed surface.
Ceramic...
It stops further attack from the air, etc.
A hard, thin ceramic barrier.

Just air? What can you form if you try some other stuff on metal surfaces?
That's what these guys did.

We as the human race got here by being inquisitive.
It's fun! You learn new stuff!
We owe it to ourselves to check. For the joy of learning.
I checked. It worked. I learned a lot.