Can a free world exist

[cfg83]

Christ -

Originally Posted by Christ

I love that thesis LOL.

Yes, the "gold standard" has ended, and has been a naught topic for quite some time. Think about it though. If there wasn't some sort of back up to the dollar, it would be officially useless.

Would you accept a check written on a napkin? (there's a trick question there, PM me if you want to know it)

Would you accept an I.O.U. before accepting collateral? What is the collateral for the paper dollar?

The US has spent so much time trying to make money in the cheapest fashion possible, that they've made it essentially worthless. When we run out of money, we print more. Throughout history, this has been true. Now, we just mortgage everything, and expect that our credit is good enough to pay back our debts.

When "money" was first issued, it was worth exactly what it said it was worth... if $10 was printed on a gold note, it was worth $10. There was something backing it up, to make it worth that $10.

These days, scrap prices don't even back up our metal monies... A penny is worth far less in scrap metals than $0.01.

That was all I meant to say there.

Ok. In my Dad's readings (I think Alexander Hamilton is on his recent dude-de-plume list), he came to the conclusion that *all* democracies end up printing money to solve their problems. Every democracy does it to varying degrees. Specifically, there is also an argument that the gold-standard was replaced by the oil-standard :

Forex Markets: The Dollar/Oil/Inflation Revolving Door - Seeking Alpha - November 24, 2008

Something to think about though is that 40 years ago, the world’s currencies used to be pegged against the price of gold and ultimately the Dollar. Now it would not be a stretch to say that global currency is on an Oil Standard. When the U.S. Government made a deal with Saudi Arabia and OPEC to only trade oil in U.S. Dollars, their “partnership” effectively gave the USD a monopoly over all other currencies when it comes to oil trading.

The gist of this argument is that foreign countries have kept hold of dollars (and thereby made them valuable) because they are "backed in oil".

But we digress ...

CarloSW2

[Christ]

Carlo - (can I call you that?) - You make a good point with this, and I'll probably end up reading further into it... However, I must also say, the first person that said "Black is the new gold" Wasn't referring to a fashion statement.

I'm sort of covertly (read: casually) watching the Euro's actions in world economy... I don't believe it's going to be around too much longer.

The value of each currency is therefore based on citizens' perception of their economy, supply and demand for money in general, and how their currency is compared to other countries' currencies.

I find this interesting as well, in it's application to not only money, but trade. If you feel that you have something that is worth far more than it is, and you can CONVINCE the other party (bartering party) that it's worth more than what they have to trade, you control the table, thus putting negotiation in your favor.

The pre-cursor to this, obviously, is believing that your currency is superior, as if you don't believe it, neither will anyone else.

Anyway, we could discuss this all day, but as you noted, we're a little outside the original context of the thread.

[Coyote X]

A free world exists now if you are willing to drop out of the machine.

I quit charging everything and am now 100% cash only, Paid off all my debts and quit spending money on most useless stuff . I canceled everything not required to live, now my bills are ~$200 a month and I am pretty much free to do what I want.

I work 21 hours a week 32 weeks a year, I don't make a huge amount of money but I make way more than I actually need with my reduced expenses. I have turned down several jobs making 2-4x what I am currently making because it would tie me down to a 40-60 hour a week job with no time off, for no useful gain in my life.

So I say it is pretty easy for a free world to exist if everyone was like this. If everyone would reduce like I have then there would be a lot more resources left over for others so that they could then bring themselves up to a standard they are happy with. But the reality is most people are petty and easily brainwashed into thinking they have to be debt slaves forever and the ultimate goal in life is to buy lots of useless crap that just gets thrown away after a week.

but then again I am just a bit strange I guess in that I would be perfectly happy to give away everything I own and just pack up my bike and take off. The road is calling me and it is pretty hard to resist sometimes...

[captainslug]

I think some of you have forgotten the point of having currency in the first place. There's no such thing as "free". Things you get for "free" were produced (from materials that also had to be produced) then the good was exchanged for a payment of some kind.
If you get something for "free" it doesn't appear out of thin air. It was already partner in a transaction.

Currency exists primarily to facilitate the ease of transactions.

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

Can the world function without money?

Maybe, but this is like asking if the world can function without electricity.
It can do either, but it seriously handicaps the populace and would make modern living extremely difficult.

Bartering takes a good deal of time and effort to negotiate (just look at how much time and effort is spent trading stocks or commodities). All of that potentially wasted time in your life is saved by simply having a relatively stable monetary system.
Also, imagine how large of a vehicle you would need in order to carry around the items you would need to in order to barter efficiently, where-as currently all you have to carry around is your wallet.
Stable currency is a staple feature of any successful industrialized nation. Currency continues to be invaluable and is exchanged even more frequently once a nation has reached post-industrialization.

Originally Posted by Coyote X

So I say it is pretty easy for a free world to exist if everyone was like this.

What you are talking about is being frugal and reducing your expenses and consumption, and being less materialistic. More people should be doing that.

However, I'm fairly sure you would still prefer to be paid for your work in something of a consistent level of value that you can readily and easily exchange for goods and services should you need or want them.
That's the point of currency. I don't have to worry about my boss trying to pay me in silver bars, which the dentist, grocery store, or pharmacy don't accept as payment, so I would have to go trade them for something they do accept.

[Christ]

Pay rate considered below poverty level in NY state in 2007:
1 person family - $10/hour - full time.
2 person family - $13/hour - full time.
(As reported by my employer at the time)

Pay rate that I received while working in NY state in 2007, supporting myself and my wife at the same time:
$10/hour - avg 38 hours/wk.
Net pay:$240/wk.

We were fine, we had TV, Internet, Cell phone, groceries, several game systems, 6 computers (1 was an IBM cancer research unit, so 5 Computers), and we both smoked about a pack a day, and not "cheap" cigarettes either. I smoked Winstons, she smoked Marlboros.

"They" call this living above our means... I call it living comfortably on less money than most other people. How did I do it? You'll figure it out

Through all that, we still managed to save about $1000 or so to move back to PA, and in NY state, I'd spent about 4 months on unemployment making $180/wk.

And - I use credit cards daily.. But I'm not in debt. It's called not buying things you can't afford RIGHT NOW. I use a credit card when it's convenient.. and I actually make more than it costs me. Pay off your credit card every month, with money that sits in a savings account accruing interest. On top of interest gained for 30 days of money you didn't have to touch, you get points on your credit card, which are worth something. All b/c you learned the "loophole" in the system. Responsibility has more to do with debt than "the machine"... at least lack thereof.

I don't attempt to disprove what you say here, I just add that it's not necessary to give up everything to be "free". Capitalism works for some, and not for others, obviously, but as long as it's here, we might as well do everything we can to make it work for us, and take advantage of what it offers.

[cfg83]

Coyote X -

Originally Posted by Coyote X

A free world exists now if you are willing to drop out of the machine.

I quit charging everything and am now 100% cash only, Paid off all my debts and quit spending money on most useless stuff . I canceled everything not required to live, now my bills are ~$200 a month and I am pretty much free to do what I want.

I work 21 hours a week 32 weeks a year, I don't make a huge amount of money but I make way more than I actually need with my reduced expenses. I have turned down several jobs making 2-4x what I am currently making because it would tie me down to a 40-60 hour a week job with no time off, for no useful gain in my life.

...

One of my proudest achievements was when I made *less* than the year before. I got myself down to maybe 24 hours a week, the minimum to keep my health care at my job. But, they asked me to add more hours, so I eventually returned to full time. Today I have the mortgage, so that isn't an option any more, .

Both my wife and I have never had a deliberate balance on our CCs. I have only paid interest by accident. I credit that (ha ha) to having lived at home until my mid 30's, so I never had as much overhead as the "normal" American.

CarloSW2