cheaper to operate than an electric car?

[NeilBlanchard]

The lease cost seems to reflect the $7500 - it does on both of our leased EV's. If we decide to purchase them at the end of the lease, we would pay FAR less than if we had purchased them; and we don't have to qualify for the tax credit.

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Agreed, the ICE in my Insight is definitely going to outlast the battery, even putting a lot of miles on it, and a replacement engine at this point can be found for around $300.

Batteries are wear items, they're more expensive than engines, and don't last as long as engines. Compared with very fuel efficient ICE vehicles, the economics just don't work yet. When gas prices go back up and battery prices come down it'll be different, but we're not quite there yet.

Speaking of cheap gas, I recently read an article that North Sea oil production is ramping up, which may well cause prices to drop further.

We don't know how long batteries will last - they probably will last as long as the car.

[Ecky]

Most reports I've seen suggest it's typical for a Leaf battery to lose 10-15% of its capacity within 3 years. Tesla and Nissan have both predicted their batteries will have ~70% capacity left after 5 years / 60k miles. I'm sure the degradation isn't linear, but at some point the range is no longer useful, even if it's technically drivable for many years longer. A Leaf's 81 mile range after 5 years is then ~57 miles.

[sendler]

The 2011 and 2012 Leaf batteries were the worst case imaginable and won't be representative of EV's going forward. The newest LiNMC chemistry will have cycle lives of 2,000 to 80%. More if you don't use the top or bottom 10% of the pack very often. Which for a Chevy Bolt would be over 400,000 miles. And then it will still work fine but "only" give you 200 miles on a charge.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Tesla and Nissan have both predicted their batteries will have ~70% capacity left after 5 years / 60k miles.

You know, I can only remember* buying one car with less than 100K miles on it. That's the current Insight, bought with ~50K and now at ~195K. As I've noted, the battery has only a fraction of its original capacity, but it's still driveable.

If EVs are going to be really practical in the mass market, there are going to have to be some changes to battery design. Instead of every manufacturer having its own, incompatible batteries, there needs to be a common, modular, and less expensive battery format.

*Not sure about some of the things I had back in the '70s and '80s, though.

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Most reports I've seen suggest it's typical for a Leaf battery to lose 10-15% of its capacity within 3 years. Tesla and Nissan have both predicted their batteries will have ~70% capacity left after 5 years / 60k miles. I'm sure the degradation isn't linear, but at some point the range is no longer useful, even if it's technically drivable for many years longer. A Leaf's 81 mile range after 5 years is then ~57 miles.

Nissan made (at least?) 2 major improvements in the battery between 2011 and mid-2014, and they are now much better than that. My 2015 has lost virtually nothing in 2 years / ~25K miles. I have not lost any range on either our Leaf or the e-Golf.

You are also wrong on the warranty - the are warranted to have at least 70% (or 80%?) after 8 or 10 years, and 80K or 100K miles.

[rmay635703]

Durable 2012 Chevrolet Volt: 300,000 miles, no battery loss

Nuff said, buy a decent ev and no worries on capacity

[cowmeat]

My 2012 Volt is rated for 35 miles on a full charge in EV mode

It has over 50k miles on it and I drive it in EV mode at least 38 miles every day, with many miles left in reserve (usually 7-10 miles of range remaining). I've driven it almost 45 miles at a time on many occasions.

I have yet to use any gas on my daily commute! Eventually the car is going to make me burn the tank of gas I have in it just so it doesn't go stale, but the car is turning out to be exactly what I needed.

I like the fact that the Volt limits charge and discharge and it that the big battery is liquid cooled, with its own cooling and heating system so the battery never has to see any extremes. I have a feeling I'm going to see many, many miles before I notice any signs of it degrading

[sendler]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Tesla and Nissan have both predicted their batteries will have ~70% capacity left after 5 years / 60k miles.

The early Leaf batteries were junk. Obviously giving EV haters ammunition that is still stuck in their heads from 4 years ago.
.
Where did you ever see Tesla say anything like that? 60,000 miles is barely 250 cycles for a big Tesla battery. Those batteries will easily last 4 times that to 80% if you don't abuse them with constant high rate supercharging and everyday "ludicrous mode" 10 second drag strip runs.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by cowmeat

My 2012 Volt is rated for for 35 miles on a full charge in EV mode.

But that's only 4 years (or maybe 5, if it was early production that year). Who knows what will happen after 10 or 20 years?