cheaper to operate than an electric car?

[NeilBlanchard]

EV's use far less energy than any other drivetrain: I am averaging 132.9 mpge on our Leaf S and 141.8 mpge on my e-Golf.

Less energy is great, and if you add solar PV to you house, you can drive virtually for free, as well.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I was under the impression that time was just as much a factor as cycles for these batteries, especially if you live in a hot climate. If you keep the cycles down, could you really still have most of your capacity out of a large Tesla battery after close to 2 decades?

Yes the big Tesla batteries are temp controlled even when you are out of the car. The Calendar losses of the first gen air cooled Leaf LiMn batteries were the junk that everyone keeps talking about. Any of the better designs will have very little calendar loss. The other thing that affected the 2011 leaf in AZ was not just the sitting in the 110F temps but also that any otherwise normal, even intermittent use was overheating them.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

So 2500 cycles is maybe 10 years, no? Not very long, at least to someone whose current vehicles are 16 and 28 years old.

Sparkle the 2012 Chevy volt I linked 2 goes through 2 full charges a day and is at over 340,000 miles and
Over 2080 full charge discharge cycles

He has no measurable capacity loss

If he were to loose his battery in a collision it's $2300 for a new gen i volt battery.

Things have changed dramatically in the last 6 years compared to the Chinese crap that hobbiests shoehorned into cars.

A properly designed ev should not have range loss

[redpoint5]

I don't understand why we are still comparing total cost of ownership of a cherry-picked scenerio of non-similar cars. A gen 1 Insight only seats 2 people. It's essentially a motorcycle with a roof and a little more storage space.

Conventional combustion engine vehicles are generally ready to be scrapped at 250,000 miles, and similarly, an EV should be able to achive that many miles given good battery managent practices.

As pointed out, the early Leaf had a poor battery design and suffers from accelerated battery degredation. The used car price for the early Leaf accounts for this. You can buy a used Leaf that is less than 5 years old for $8000. That is very cheap for a car that (range limitations aside) isn't likely to have other problems. Not only that, but it has many modern luxuries such as Bluetooth, heated seats, backup cameras, etc. What features does the gen 1 Insight offer? When you consider that other EVs have better battery management, that makes them all the more compelling.

I appreciate taking the sceptic's view on things, but it isn't accurate to say that ICEs always have a lower total cost of ownership than EVs, or vice-versa. Every family has unique requirements for transportation, and each geographic location has different prices for fuel and electricity that must be considered.

For me, electricity will always be cheaper per mile than gasoline. Considering my range requirements for a 2nd household vehicle is extremely small, just about any EV should work. The total cost of ownership for a vehicle that is about 4 years old and has many of the technologies I desire favors an EV. I know this because I have run the numbers in the Vehicle Total Cost of Ownership calculator that is in my signature.

[Ecky]

I don't think I generalized. I'm just saying that compared with my car, where I live, even the cost per mile of an EV is (at best) the same price. If I wanted to justify going electric, I wouldn't be able to do it from an economic standpoint.

[sendler]

Germany, France, and UK are all at $1.50 per Liter. USA is $.66.
.
Gasoline prices around the world, 07-Nov-2016 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com
.
UK and France electric is $.20. USA $.12. Germany is high at $.35 since the consumers are financing home roof top solar.
.
https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/ene...rices-kwh.html
.

[sheepdog 44]

I didn't realize this thread was still going. Just as a reflection of cheap gas, it takes very little for it to shoot $1-2 a gallon in one summer and the math is over. People are already falling into the trap of buying trucks and suv's. Ford and GM are collectively laying off tens of thousands of car workers because car sales are declining in favor of trucks. And maybe in part because building cars is more profitable in Mexico. Who knows how soon untill it hits $4 again?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by sendler

Here is something else to think about. It's not just about dollars and cents. We are wrecking the planet with carbon emissions. You are a complete .1% outlier with your 70 mpg Insight. Most people choose cars that struggle to break 30 mpg. Why wouldn't they. Gas is $2 gallon in the USA. People will never choose to act until they are forced. And you can't MAKE the automaker sell them something they don't want.

Which is exactly the point I've been trying to make. If you oversell EVs by making false - or at least not yet provable - claims about range, how long they'll last, long-term maintenance costs, and so on, then you risk a massive backlash when people find out.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by sendler

Yes the big Tesla batteries are temp controlled even when you are out of the car.

You mean they're running heat or A/C 24/7? And just what does THAT do for your energy efficiency?

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Conventional combustion engine vehicles are generally ready to be scrapped at 250,000 miles...

Huh? OK, maybe steel-bodied ones with inadequate corrosion protection, in areas where they dump tons of corrosive chemicals on the roads in winter.

(The Leaf)... has many modern luxuries such as Bluetooth, heated seats, backup cameras, etc.

Perhaps you could explain exactly why I'd WANT any of those 'features'. OK, rear-view cameras IF it was legal to delete side mirrors, but just for backing up?

[Grant-53]

EV is essentially an urban vehicle. It must compete with the bicycle and the bus system. My home is not the best candidate for solar electric but rather solar hot air in the winter when my maple tree is not shading the south side. Trees are great for dealing with carbon dioxide too.