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Old 12-19-2010, 07:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I think that once Toyota starts selling a plug in Prius that the Volt will either have to improve or go under, as it is you can spend $8000 less and get a Prius pluss a plug in battery upgrade and have the same kind of 35 mile range.
What Chevy has going for it for the next two years is the "Made In America" label with it's LG battery and the rest of it being made who knows where, Nissan will never have that kind of fallowing because even after they start making the Leaf in the US it will still have a Japanese name plate, unless it gets a Ford name plate or some other US makers name stamped on it.

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Old 12-19-2010, 08:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryland View Post
I think that once Toyota starts selling a plug in Prius that the Volt will either have to improve or go under, as it is you can spend $8000 less and get a Prius pluss a plug in battery upgrade and have the same kind of 35 mile range.
What Chevy has going for it for the next two years is the "Made In America" label with it's LG battery and the rest of it being made who knows where, Nissan will never have that kind of fallowing because even after they start making the Leaf in the US it will still have a Japanese name plate, unless it gets a Ford name plate or some other US makers name stamped on it.
I heard that the "PIPrius" will be less-but-similar to the cost of the "PIVolt" :

Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid On Sale in 2011, Less Than $10K More - Green Car Reports
Quote:
That could bring the plug-in premium into a range of $5,000 to $8,000 over today's $35,000 price for a top-of-the-line 2010 Toyota Prius. The plug-in cost will be partially offset by a $2,500 Federal tax credit for the first 60,000 plug-ins sold by Toyota.
Volt, Leaf not yet priced
No prices have been announced for the 2011 Chevy Volt, although it is expected to be offered for $35,000 to $40,000. The Volt, too, is eligible for a Federal tax credit--in this case, the maximum of $7,500.
I do think the PIPrius will have a better total MPG because it's already a great MPG platform sans plug-in capability.

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Old 12-19-2010, 10:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jason1973tl View Post
While I agree with you about letting failing companies fail, I have to disagree about the Leaf.

I have already heard of one of the first owners getting a range in excess of 100 miles without using hypermiling techniques. That kind of range is more than twice my daily range that I need. And to boot, the cost to recharge is equal to paying 40 to 50 cents per gallon for gasoline. Not to mention the fact that an electric car is almost maintenance free compared to an I.C.E.
Well,
I think that you and many people are missing my point. I was pressing the issue of no conclusive evidence of range, just what magazines and reporters as well as the EPA have provided. We must have about 4-5 threads going on how bad the volt sucks, and it hasnt even made it into anyones hands yet. I think your defense of the leaf continues the unrealistic unproven looked-at-a-picture reviews of the volt. Why haven't the members of this forum continued their rant on the Leaf with its pricing compared to the Prius? Can we wait to see what it will do? I have some very opinionated views of some makes and models of vehicles, why dont I repeatedly start threads on how they suck before I have even driven one or have proof of their reliability?
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryland View Post
What Chevy has going for it for the next two years is the "Made In America" label with it's LG battery and the rest of it being made who knows where, Nissan will never have that kind of fallowing because even after they start making the Leaf in the US it will still have a Japanese name plate...
Except for the fact that there's a large segment of the market, maybe a majority, which prefers to buy Japanese brand cars (even if they're actually made in US factories). I wouldn't have any hesitation in buying a Leaf (if it was the kind of car I wanted), but I'd think long and hard before buying a Volt, simply because of my past experience with products from the two companies.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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...Why haven't the members of this forum continued their rant on the Leaf with its pricing compared to the Prius?...
Actually this thread was the first look I had at leaf pricing, and it was disappointing. I expected not having an ICE would simplify everything from time to market to cost structure.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:49 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Well,
I think that you and many people are missing my point. I was pressing the issue of no conclusive evidence of range, just what magazines and reporters as well as the EPA have provided. We must have about 4-5 threads going on how bad the volt sucks, and it hasnt even made it into anyones hands yet. I think your defense of the leaf continues the unrealistic unproven looked-at-a-picture reviews of the volt. Why haven't the members of this forum continued their rant on the Leaf with its pricing compared to the Prius? Can we wait to see what it will do? I have some very opinionated views of some makes and models of vehicles, why dont I repeatedly start threads on how they suck before I have even driven one or have proof of their reliability?
Believe me, I understand the pricing thing. The electric cars, with their lack of complexity have absolutely no reason at all to cost what they do. They insist on using their own proprietary battery packs, and not using ready made battery technology that all of us can use. They could very easily have used some Thundersky cells for 8 grand instead of building a pack that is both heated and water cooled because they just had to use lithium cobalt batteries instead of the cheaper, safer lithium iron phosphate formula.
When I back the side of electrics it is because their are already plenty of people who hate EVs because they think they won't work. I happen to think they are better than ICE cars, we just have to prove it.

When it comes to hybrids like the Volt, all I am saying is that they designed an EV with substandard range so they can still sell us a car with an IC engine. Personally, I think hybrids are too complicated. They have all the price and complexity of an ICE and an electric car all wrapped up in one package. My Toyota Yaris my wife drives, and trust me it is NOT hypermiled by any stretch of the imagination, averages 41 to 44 mpg. I would love to get my hands on this car to see how much it is capable of, but she won't let me. I don't think hybrids are necessary. We can achieve the numbers we want with ICE alone. Why do we need to make things that much more complicated.

Don't mean to make this sound like a rant, but all these new cars are too expensive and too complicated. That is why my next new car is currently a pile of metal being assembled in my garage. The total weight will be 1000 lbs or less with two seats. I want a car that the auto companies refuse to build, so I will build it myself and see who else wants one.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Ok, now we are getting somewhere.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:13 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Only GM would try to build an electric car you refuel with gasoline.
A small gasoline engine-generator would make sense as a range-extender.

But an engine that is sized to drive the car by itself simply doesn't make sense.
That way it's too inefficient to make a real difference from normal cars beyond its EV range.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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When it comes to hybrids like the Volt, all I am saying is that they designed an EV with substandard range so they can still sell us a car with an IC engine.
I don't agree at all. I think a Volt-like design, electrically-driven but with a range-extending engine, is by far the preferred design. Now I'll agree that the Volt is probably too complicated, but something like the Leaf with half the battery and a 5 HP Honda generator would come close to suiting me.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jim-Bob View Post
To be honest, if GM were REALLY concerned about fuel efficient transportation for the masses, it would partner with Toyota to bring the Aygo in from Europe.
Toyota's already bringing over the iQ as Scion iQ.
http://www.scion.com/#/iQ

They could do the same with the Aygo, though I'd think it's possibly too common / bland to bring to the US.
The iQ is rather unusual, so it could sell just based on its weird-factor alone, but the Aygo is nothing special at all.

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