"Clean Coal" Claims that Solar can't handle Baseload power demands!

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

How much cheaper is the natural gas plant when there's no natural gas to burn?

Nuclear in real terms is cheaper if proper lifespans are followed including repowering instead of retirement is followed

Sadly beurocratic costs and pure incompetence make it cost more.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

There are 100% renewable grids - most of them are on islands. It wouldn't surprise me if Hawaii was the first US state with a 100% renewable grid.

That underscores my point, that Hawaii should have the cheapest electricity in the US, not the most expensive.

I don't doubt it will happen eventually (or nuclear will displace it all), but current claims of solar being cheaper are ignorance at best, or outright lies by certain corrupt ideologues at worst. My default is to assume ignorance in the absence of proof of maleficence.

Should we be following inept people, or corrupt people?

As an aside, I have a lot of respect for those who understand the implications of their ideology and accept the tradeoffs it entails even if I don't agree with their value structure. What I have contempt for are those who knowingly abide in lies in service to their ideology. They are slaves to idiocy.

[Piotrsko]

Whith all those cows, pigs, and trash dumps, I find it difficult to see a lack of fuel. Availability,yes. Lack thereinof, no.

[redpoint5]

Hawaii probably should use garbage incineration power generators. Kill 2 stones with 1 bird. Since it's in the middle of the ocean, the pollution rapidly disperses so that it affects no population.

There's a garbage power plant around here and it has never seemed to be a problem.

[freebeard]

Hawai'i is an edge case.

Ocean thermal energy conversion
Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion uses the ocean thermal gradient between cooler deep and warmer shallow or surface seawaters to run a heat engine and produce useful work, usually in the form of electricity. OTEC can operate with a very high capacity factor and so can operate in base load mode. Wikipedia

Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion ( OTEC ): The Future of Baseload, Dispatchable Renewable Energy

[redpoint5]

I actually think Hawaii could be the first place where renewables could be the cost effective solution. The trade winds are fairly consistent and sunlight plentiful year round. They've got moderate temperatures that don't fluctuate much day to day or seasonally...

If everyone drove EVs (as anyone on an island should), the utility could develop V2G and there'd be plenty of storage.

A quick google search says the average Hawaiian household consumes 18.5 kWh per day. A fully charged 60 kWh EV could provide 3 days worth of household consumption assuming zero help from solar / wind.

Building big expensive centralized power plants on each island seems less efficient than distributed wind / solar.

[freebeard]

A fully charged 60 kWh EV could provide 3 days worth of household consumption

On average, a particualr EV will be half-charged.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

On average, a particualr EV will be half-charged.

I'd guess the average across the US is something like 80%. People don't run to zero, and they charge to full every night. Typical commute might consume 20% of the battery.

Even at 50% capacity, if everyone drove EVs and were grid connected, this would be sufficient storage.

[freebeard]

So long as they don't drive anywhere.

[redpoint5]

The correct question would be, what percent of vehicles are connected to the grid and what is the state of charge and what is the average capacity of those vehicles when grid demand exceeds generation capacity.

Who knows. I bet there's never been a study. That study would quickly become outdated as larger capacity batteries hit the market.

The point though is to provide the proper incentives and disincentives to encourage people to participate in selling electricity when it's needed, and consuming it when it's cheap.

On the Bolt forum, a member says they own a Powerwall and participate in a trial program that pays him $2 / kWh when electricity supply reaches critical levels. There's the motivation to participate. It's energy arbitrage, buying in the cheap market and selling in the expensive one.

I like the concept because it decentralizes decision making so that a single fool isn't at the helm. It's a way to leverage a free market to solve a continuous problem of setting price and balancing supply and demand.