The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[sendler]

Originally Posted by billvon post_id=1502091 time=1570381196 user_id=2042

Agreed. Which is why we should be going full bore on all those ideas now, so we make the mistakes while energy is still (relatively) cheap and the cost of failure is low.

Absolutely! A worldwide Green New Deal is essential immediately on January, 2020. Taking what we learned from the mitigation of the Great Depression with minimum and maximum incomes to pay for it all and the example of the repurposing of industry that the USA undertook for the build up to WWII with rationing cards, ect. It must be coordinated word wide so there is no tax haven race to the bottom for rich individuals and global corporations to just relocate. There is only one planet and we are all in this together.
.
By the way, I forgot to mention that all current wind and solar build out is heavily dependent on carbon fuel for the mining, refining, manufacture, and installation. It remains to be seen how much of this and what remaining scale of the already insufficient amount will remain as we are faced with diminishing ER/EI of liquid fuel, and then natural gas, or choose to try to leave it in the ground, over the next coming decades.

[oil pan 4]

About the time it's decided to "leave it in the ground" is about the time people will realize how much it's need to make things like solar panels and wind tuebines.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by #post608576

Absolutely! A worldwide Green New Deal is essential immediately on January, 2020.

That has more specificity than the freshman congresscritters demand. How do you propose that that happens in 2 months.*

billvon post_id=1502091 time=1570381196 user_id=2042
...sendler2112 post_id=1502054 time=1570367657 user_id=30715

At post #post608576 you quote posts 1502091 and 1502054. Let's do the time warp again?


*Amateur cannibalism? Each one eat one?

[litesong]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I would be more worries if the glaciers are growing.

Yeah, growing glaciers would "be more worries" than one, for sure. AGW deniers talked, "growing glaciers & ice ages coming", for 30+ years .... & still do, today.

[freebeard]

Start with Universe

Our ancestors observed patterns in nature that profoundly influenced their beliefs and behaviors, enabling them to anticipate and synchronize with the cycles of life. By paying close attention to the world around them, countless generations developed reciprocal relationships with environments that enabled them to survive and thrive.

Today, modern technologies enable us to manipulate our surroundings in extraordinary ways. Yet they also isolate us, encouraging us to take the life-sustaining systems of our home planet for granted as endlessly exploitable resources and economic externalities. As specialized sciences increasingly seek to reduce existence to its component parts, the universe has seemingly been diminished to little more than physical properties, isolated interactions, and mathematical laws.

This materialist cosmology has effectively separated facts from value, imparting the overwhelming sense that Earth is a mediocre pale blue dot aimlessly wandering around within the infinite void of space. Though the interconnected challenges facing humanity are growing ever more complex and urgent, there seems to be little guidance or meaning to be found by paying attention to this larger context.

Buckminster Fuller challenged this limited perspective over fifty years ago, asserting that it is both incomplete and obsolete. He insisted that the sense of separation from nature is a dangerous illusion resulting from reductionism and overspecialization, and that humanity's evolutionary success is dependent on our willingness to learn from the emergent behaviors of whole systems. This led him to question how we envision the context of our existence, re-imagining a big picture in which our species is situated within the full continuum of creation. In Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth he asks...

So you start with Universe and discard irrelevancies. To that end here's Anton Petrov today: We Just Took The First Ever Picture of the Cosmic Web

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkaHsHRiULA

It all flows downhill, in more ways than one. We don't see this in the night sky the same way fish don't see water.

[RedDevil]

Nobody told the dinosaurs the comet was coming to kill them. But even if, they wouldn't be able to understand the message.

Now, we know what's coming, and we vocalize it, and back it up with science.
But all the deniers do is look the other way. Change is coming, and our reaction to it is well under way, but not thanks to them.
Where were you when the change happened? Right in the middle, ignoring the obvious.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

Nobody told the dinosaurs the comet was coming to kill them. But even if, they wouldn't be able to understand the message.

Now, we know what's coming, and we vocalize it, and back it up with science.
But all the deniers do is look the other way. Change is coming, and our reaction to it is well under way, but not thanks to them.
Where were you when the change happened? Right in the middle, ignoring the obvious.

I read the ipcc reports. I believe them. Just accept that the world isn't ending.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.

Was listening to someone testing a new 2020 Nissan Leaf, w/64kWhr battery pack, who owned an early Leaf with 24 or 30 wKhr pack. He said the 2020 was mostly stock early Nissan Leaf. Some exterior change in the front & rear panels, but the mid-panels were almost a direct swap from the early Leafs. He said much of the interior was familiar to him, with his older Leaf. From the actual data given, the new Leaf may not be as efficient as other brand EVs.

[oil pan 4]

The leaf DC to DC converter and inverter drive doesn't appear to be all that efficient.
To me it appears to be based on older, cheaper more power hungry technology.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I enjoy the low rates in the PNW, but I was raised on Woody Guthrie songs......OTOH, the construction of China's Three Gorges dam had massive environmental impact.......The cultural artifacts submerged were similar to the Aswan dam in Egypt......

From maps & references in "Exploring Washington (state)" in areas marked on Franklin D. Roosevelt Lake backed up behind Grand Coulee Dam:
1) Site of two Sanpoil Indian villages (now submerged), " "Deep springs" & "solid rocks", where 50 Indians once lived.
2) Site of two Indian villages (now submerged), "Rough rock" & "Across the creek", where 60 persons once lived.
3) Site of Sanpoil Indian winter camp, "Level ground" (now submerged), where 20 Indians once lived.
4) Site of two Sanpoil Indian villages (now submerged), "Place of rye grass" & "Roar of wind striking cliff", 150 Indians once lived.
5) A party of Chinese miners worked the gold placers (now submerged) at the mouth of the Sanpoil River.
6) Site of the largest Sanpoil Indian village (now submerged), "Gray as far as one can see", where 400 Indians once lived. On July 3, 1811, fur trader David Thompson camped here & met with the Sanpoil Indians, who presented him with moss bread, "made from long black moss, like hair that grows on the red fir trees".
In 1810, trappers from the Northwest Company, established a ....post at the mouth of the Sanpoil River, as Alexander Henry relates, "...where they met many Indians, who came to them from the south & west, bringing beavers, bears, otters, & other valuable skins to trade".
7) Site of the largest Sanpoil Indian winter camp "Mountains at the edge of the river" (now submerged), where 300 Indians once lived.
Other sites of submerged Native Tribal villages are marked, & probably many other Native Tribal inhabited areas were never known.
8) Upon the completion of the Grand Coulee Dam, ten towns were abandoned or re-located.
9) At one marked location alone, were 4 sites of Lakes Native Tribes villages (now submerged in the widest area of the upper FDR Lake). During the summer, this was a popular meeting & games ground for the Colville, Lakes, & Kalispel Tribes. Into the 1880's (& later?), the Native Tribes were prosperous farmers, growing the best crops in all the region.