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Old 06-21-2023, 02:36 PM   #1201 (permalink)
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I didn't respond to 1165 out of respect; to give you the required time to observe that the Tweet was made in 2018, leaving mere days for the prophecy to occur, or not. Figured you might want to delete that comment once you noticed the error, but you persisted to ask what was obvious to all who gave proper attention to detail.
Yeah, your respectful tone and all. You posted all kinds of nonsense instead of just answering the question.

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Complete agreement. We rely most heavily on fossil fuels, which is why it would be unwise to drastically alter consumption. Making humanity poorer now would cause death and and suffering immediately, and set back technological progress for the future.
Finally, you get to the heart of the issue. You believe that humanity depends on burning fossil fuels for its existence. Yet the scientific consensus is that burning fossil fuels threatens our existence. Humans can thrive with and without fossil fuels, but humans can't thrive with a destabilized climate. Your dependence on burning fossil fuels is not only incorrect, but antithetical. You want your wants to be prioritized over humanity's needs.

True technological progress in the current era would be true ecological progress. Your viewpoint is from a previous era. You want industrial activities to overrule the 'laws of Nature.'


Last edited by sgtlethargic; 06-21-2023 at 02:49 PM..
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Old 06-21-2023, 02:46 PM   #1202 (permalink)
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I'll rephrase: How much longer do the contrarians believe that humans can continue abusing the environment?
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Old 06-21-2023, 02:50 PM   #1203 (permalink)
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So you are going to take the weak position that this isn't an environmental website. I'd like you guys to commit to an argument. Is that the consensus of the four or so climate contrarians?
I believe most active people on here would agree this isn't an environmental website.
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Old 06-21-2023, 02:52 PM   #1204 (permalink)
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I'll rephrase: How much longer do the contrarians believe that humans can continue abusing the environment?
Probably at least several hundred more years.
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Old 06-21-2023, 02:54 PM   #1205 (permalink)
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Save money
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Innate interest in efficiency
Reduce pollution
*abhorance of the idea that the median consumer that vehicle's manufacturers posit [stock vehicles] are suitable for everyone's needs: in terms of performance, fit and finish, color. accessories, etc. & etc.

Diffferent strokes, amirite?

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Old 06-21-2023, 02:58 PM   #1206 (permalink)
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Probably at least several hundred more years.
Therefore your logic is based on testing whether or not the environment will be destabilized, no matter the consequences.
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Old 06-21-2023, 03:07 PM   #1207 (permalink)
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True technological progress in the current era would be true ecological progress. Your viewpoint is from a previous era. You want industrial activities to overrule the 'laws of Nature.'
A [$Current Year] scenario?

Humanity had all the tools to be a success in Universe in 1972. [source]

Humanity has 'spun it's wheels' for fifty years. It's nothing to be proud of.

Describe the 'Laws of Nature" you reference, pleez.
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Old 06-21-2023, 03:13 PM   #1208 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic View Post
You posted all kinds of nonsense instead of just answering the nonsense question.

Finally, you get to the heart of the issue. You believe that humanity depends on burning fossil fuels for its existence.
No, not at all, just as I don't believe human existence depends on not burning fossil fuels. We have evidence that humanity existed long before fossil fuels were utilized, just that it was nasty, brutish, and short.

Clearly more people exist as a result of fossil fuel exploitation, so that suggests human existence is helped by it, not hindered.

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Yet the scientific consensus is that burning fossil fuels threatens our existence.
There's no such consensus, and the most well regarded climate scientists make no such existential claims. Science is not the process of consensus; it's the process of making increasingly accurate predictions based on observation.

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Humans can thrive with and without fossil fuels, but humans can't thrive with a destabilized climate.
Sure we can. We thrive despite destabilized weather.

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Your dependence on burning fossil fuels is not only incorrect, but antithetical. You want your wants to be prioritized over humanity's needs.
I'll need some help unpacking this a bit more, but I'll take a stab at it anyhow...

I make 2 claims:

1. most of us wouldn't exist if fossil fuels were never exploited
2. human existence does not require use of fossil fuels

So my wants would never even exist if humanity didn't exploit fossil fuels because I'd have never been born. I'm grateful that fossil fuels were exploited resulting in my existence and the resultant wants.

As for humanity's needs, they consist primarily of reproduction, survival, and productive work.

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True technological progress in the current era would be true ecological progress.
Very true. All technology derives from nature and therefore has a relationship with ecology.

Defining "progress" is the subjective bit.

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Your viewpoint is from a previous era. You want industrial activities to overrule the 'laws of Nature.'
My viewpoint will always be the default one, so long as humans are around. That viewpoint being the necessity to impact the natural state of the world from one which is less hospitable to human flourishing, to one that is more hospitable to human flourishing.

We could all choose to live in teepees, going around raiding other primitive tribes, and generally having a small impact on nature, but nobody chooses to live that way when given the option.

The law of nature is "dog eat dog", so I am opposed to it. Since industrialism creates cooperation which "overrules" the law of nature, I'm for it. Would rather have a smartphone than someone's scalp adorning my necklace.

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I'll rephrase: How much longer do the contrarians believe that humans can continue abusing the environment?
I don't think that's a helpful rephrase, and I'm skeptical that you're asking in good faith. I'll assume good faith as a default, and answer the question.

The Environment is not sentient, and therefore cannot be abused. That means nobody has ever abused The Environment, and never will.
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Old 06-21-2023, 05:06 PM   #1209 (permalink)
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There's no point in talking about serious issues with people who don't take them seriously.
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Old 06-21-2023, 05:12 PM   #1210 (permalink)
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There's no point in talking about serious issues with people who don't take them seriously.
I keep thinking exactly that, and yet I persist in offering 4 sentences to every 1 provided by you. I'm putting in a lot more effort. I'm linking sources, posting visual aids, and taking the time to do a deeper dive into each idea. Always happy to go deeper yet.

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