CNBC Says only racing enthusiasts buy manuals, let’s correct them

[JSH]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Every SUV/pickup I have ever owned had the transmission failing before 200k
Minivans ditto above, got rid of 1 slipping bad with 120k. (Brand doesn’t seem to matter much)

Sedans, I will agree most live longer.

My relatives haven’t had better luck, my niece got an older low mile RAV4 transmission fail at 68k, all these raised height CUVs and crossovers seem to be following the same trend.

I have never had a manual transmission or clutch fail, though I bought a car with bad synchros (though I have never fixed it)

I tend to keep cars until they are 20-30 years old, odd part is I usually have fewer problems in their Twilight years than around year 10.

I guess you never know but the trend of putting a sedan transmission in a CUV doesn’t seem to be working well for longevity

Do you change the transmission fluid on schedule and with the correct factory spec fluid? If so that is some seriously bad luck.

On my Astro Van the normal service interval is every 50K miles but lots of people (including myself) fall into the heavy duty cycle of every 15K miles. I have the trifecta: Drive in heavy city traffic, drive in hilly or mountainous terrain, and tow.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by JSH

Do you change the transmission fluid on schedule and with the correct factory spec fluid? If so that is some seriously bad luck.

On my Astro Van the normal service interval is every 50K miles but lots of people (including myself) fall into the heavy duty cycle of every 15K miles. I have the trifecta: Drive in heavy city traffic, drive in hilly or mountainous terrain, and tow.

Yes I do change transmission fluid with OEM by the book.
I even changed the lifetime fluid in the TDI twice and still ended up with the dreaded throttle pulsing failure I was hoping to avoid.

My driving has always been pretty light duty Flat
save the 82 diesel but that truck saw the least maintenance and lasted the longest Despite pulling most of its 438,000 miles.

Based on the folks who live around here your experience is abnormal unless you have only had sedans or 3 speeds. Most of the folks I know that keep their CUV/SUV vehicles over 100,000 end up with major transmission service.
My friends that drive sedans seem to be the exception.

Maybe your climate is more mild? No idea , but the local transmission shop has around 50 cars parked waiting for service week in and week out, must be moderately common.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Yes I do change transmission fluid with OEM by the book.
I even changed the lifetime fluid in the TDI twice and still ended up with the dreaded throttle pulsing failure I was hoping to avoid.

My driving has always been pretty light duty Flat
save the 82 diesel but that truck saw the least maintenance and lasted the longest Despite pulling most of its 438,000 miles.

Based on the folks who live around here your experience is abnormal unless you have only had sedans or 3 speeds. Most of the folks I know that keep their CUV/SUV vehicles over 100,000 end up with major transmission service.
My friends that drive sedans seem to be the exception.

Maybe your climate is more mild? No idea , but the local transmission shop has around 50 cars parked waiting for service week in and week out, must be moderately common.

I grew up in Michigan and my parents and in-laws still live there. They mostly drove E150 conversion vans (3 and 4 speeds) and Ford Explorers (4 and 5 speeds) when I was growing up. The Explorers were used to deliver newspapers so a lot of stop and go.

My brother had a Ford Ranger (4 speed) that got passed on to me. My parents still have his 2000 Silverado (4 speed - that he towed a race trailer with). They also have my aunt's 2004 GMC Envoy (4 speed)

My father-in-law has always driven Ford F250s with a manual until this last one which is an auto. My mother-in-law had a 1996 Thunderbird (4 speed), 2006 Ford Escape (4 speed) and now has a 2016 Ford Escape (6 speed)

My first car was a GMC Jimmy with a 3 speed. Replaced by a Chevy Cavalier wagon with a 3 speed. Then manuals and Prii until I picked up the Astro. It is old (2004) but with only 90K miles on the odometer. The previous owner's flat towed it so the odometer doesn't tell the whole story.

We've always done maintenance by the book. (Well except my dad who still changes oil every 3K miles - every 5K with synthetic)

[aerohead]

1) Some automotive periodicals have written that urban grid-lock is one factor driving the transition away from manuals. My last trip through California, after DARKO taught me never to go back to California. Ever! From San Luis Obispo, to Orange, it was seven hours. I suspect that California leads the world in carbon emissions. Foreign civil engineers, interested in parking lot design, travel to California to observe 'freeways' as inspiration.
2) I didn't have to wait on Porsche going to automatics to take the clue in 1975, when I left the West Coast, never looking back. Hundreds of clutch depressions and engagements over a few miles will destroy any fondness for the efficiency potential of a manual.
3) Evidently, it's also cheaper, and more profitable to manufacture with an automatic, than a manual ( from Bob Lutz). He would know.
4) EPA CAFE certification is easier on a carmaker with an automatic, as the 'nut behind the wheel' is eliminated from the equation, computer doing all the 'thinking.'
5) Since when, would Universal Studios, owner of NBC, know anything about transmissions? It would be like, what does NBC know about climate change. NBC's Al Roker broadcasts a special from the Arctic, about the dangers of global warming, then two weeks later, he and his associates are hot-rodding a high-performance Ford Mustang through a cordoned off area of New York City, live, on Good Morning America.

[redpoint5]

So-called news is really just entertainment with some facts (truthful or not) thrown in. I've found mainstream news is either factually incorrect, or several years behind in knowing something, which means it's entirely worthless to me.

EngineeringExplained had a recent episode describing the phenomenon of rev hang during shifting on modern manuals. It has to do with meeting emissions requirements.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by aerohead

My last trip through California, after DARKO taught me never to go back to California. Ever! From San Luis Obispo, to Orange, it was seven hours.

I got lost on the way home from Darko [DARKO?] and took a detour through the NE corner of the state looking for the Siskiyuo Pass.

I overnighted at the summit of the Donner Pass. The restroom there is the Taj Mahal of public restrooms. The lobby is bigger than most houses and there's floor to ceiling glass block walls in the men's room.

It was all downhill from there.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

So-called news is really just entertainment with some facts (truthful or not) thrown in. I've found mainstream news is either factually incorrect, or several years behind in knowing something, which means it's entirely worthless to me.

EngineeringExplained had a recent episode describing the phenomenon of rev hang during shifting on modern manuals. It has to do with meeting emissions requirements.

I suspect, the CPU has a vast look-up menu for responses, based on sensor data and clock time, altering stuff like ignition timing, valve timing, lift, duration, EGR, air-fuel ratio, etc., to satisfy conditions of the original EPA certification and compliance. Even my analogue 1984 Civic would do an overrun between shifts at times.Very disconcerting at closed-throttle, attempting to engine brake on a downhill stretch.

[redpoint5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm6SSeLivqE

[JSH]

Originally Posted by aerohead

3) Evidently, it's also cheaper, and more profitable to manufacture with an automatic, than a manual ( from Bob Lutz). He would know.

Yes and No. One for one the manual is simpler and cheaper to make. However, as the product mix moves more and more to the automatic - economy of scale kicks and the parts for the automatic get cheaper and the parts for the manual get more expensive until at some point the lines cross and the automatic is cheaper.

There are other factors too.

Manufacturing: The manual is likely on a different assembly line than the automatic and that line takes up valuable space. If there is a space pinch in the plant the business case can be made to kill the manual and rip out that line instead of paying millions to add additional space to the plant.

Design: The space on the front wall (firewall) of a modern car is tight and space is at a premium. When you have manual transmission the clutch and reservoir have a space claim on the front wall that other components have to work around. Sometimes you have to add brackets that are more expensive or make the assembly process more complicated to accommodate the manual option. Take a car like the Honda Accord. Honda sold 267K last year and 1% were sold with the manual. Do you add $1* to 264,000 automatic Accords so that you can sell 2670 manuals? That is $100 for every manual Accord sold.

*Adding $1 cost per car is a huge amount in the automotive world.


Programing:
Every engine / transmission combination has unique engine management programing and each one takes thousands of hours. That cost is split over the number of vehicles sold

Testing:
Every engine / transmission combination has to be tested. Hot, Cold, fuel economy, durability, towing, etc. Again, that cost is spread over the number of vehicles sold with that transmission. There is also the matter of resources. There are only so many technicians and dynos. At some point you have to limit the number of test so you don't have to add equipment or people.

Service:
Parts have to be stocked – the more parts, the bigger the warehouse, the more people required, the more logistical headaches

Training:
Every dealer in the USA has to have at least 1 technician trained to work on the manual

In the end it all adds up and it doesn’t make much sense to keep offering a low margin or negative margin option that sells a few thousand a year.

[Fat Charlie]

Um, I'm a racing enthusiast. And a driving enthusiast. My wife is neither, but we were a 2 MT family until she decided she decided her next rig needed to be a minivan (and she was disappointed by the transmission options).

Gridlock sucks no matter what your transmission. And ATs suck no matter what traffic conditions are.

The real problem on the manufacturing end is that every meathead too dumb to wrap his brain around a manual can't buy one, while as much as I enjoy driving, I can buy an automatic. That's simple enough math for any factory.