The Crash that Caused the Toyota Recall

[robchalmers]

i'm with bestclimb, my drivers mat always lives in the garage or trunk.

this sound a lot like the explorer issue a few years back. the mat sits behind the brake peddle too so when both feet are mashing the b peddle it pushing the mat harder against the gas - hence brakes cook / catch fire

imho i don't care if its a loaner or not you should know what does what in any car. i get to go all over the place driving different cars through work and friends in the auto industry and for fun. Until I know how what the controls do including the vast majority of new cars with keyless systems I won't go onto the road. I mean 10 seconds to figure out where neutral is, where the EPB is and how to kill the engine etc is better than relying on my cell.

i'll get off my soapbox now

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

imho i don't care if its a loaner or not you should know what does what in any car.

The flip side of that is that important controls should always be in the same place, and work much the same way, in any car. Toyota decided to break this rule with their ignition switch, and we see the result.

[MetroMPG]

Had an interesting conversation with my sister this weekend as a result of this thread - she's got the Camry hybrid, with push-button start/stop.

I related this recall tale and asked if she knew how to deal with her car in a situation like this if she needed to.

She's already had a near incident (probably would have been minor if it hadn't only been "near") as a result of the push-button hybrid start: in any other car, in rapid fire succesion she twists the key, applies brake, puts it in gear, releases the brake, and goes. Twist, apply brake, shift, release brake, go! Lickety split! Literally don't even think about it, right? You've done it thousands of times.

In her hybrid, you have to wait a couple of seconds for the car to "boot up" before you actually get power from it. (Says she & husband.)

Twice, she has applied this rapid fire pattern to the hybrid: push start button, apply brake, shift, release brake... car starts rolling, unpowered, in the UNEXPECTED direction on a slight grade! No vacuum reserve because it's been parked for a long time. No power steering. Heart leaps to throat. Arms work furiously. Leg jumps to brake ... push really hard. Incident averted. But she found it alarming to say the least.

Old habits applied to new situations where they don't fit.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The flip side of that is that important controls should always be in the same place, and work much the same way, in any car. Toyota decided to break this rule with their ignition switch, and we see the result.

I don't know that there is such a rule, unless you are just playing armchair sociologist or something. But there are reasons to occasionally try something new (but this button thing seems kinda stupid in hindsight)

For example, if you had figured out drive by wire and could have a joystick on the center console that could steer/brake/accelerate/clutch/change gears then the passenger could be a redundant pilot in case of emergencies.

[wdb]

It's easy to blame the driver, but I still have a hard time doing so. Unfortunately for me it's far too easy to imagine myself in his shoes.

I take time to learn controls when I get into unfamiliar vehicles. I adjust seats, steering and mirrors, I find out where the lights and wipers are, and I figure out the shifter. But I don't take the floormats out unless they capture my attention in some way. (It has happened.) And I don't think I would have ever gone as far as to check how to shut the car off in a panic situation, no matter what kind of starting arrangement it had. It never entered my mind to do so. I will now, after this.

But the driver of that Lexus does not have the luxury of hindsight.

There are a great many ways to cause a throttle to stick. I once had an MGB throttle cable stick wide open because the plastic liner inside the housing had melted; it turns out that the grounding cable to the engine block had broken, and the current flow of the entire electrical system was routing through the throttle cable! With today's drive-by-wire systems that won't happen, but plenty of other things might.

The problem I see here isn't that the floor mat caused the throttle to stick. It is that the driver, once he became aware that the throttle was stuck, was still unable to regain control of the vehicle, or at least disable it. He didn't panic, and yet he failed to either shut the car off or get it into neutral. That's what killed him.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The flip side of that is that important controls should always be in the same place, and work much the same way, in any car. Toyota decided to break this rule with their ignition switch, and we see the result.

Keyless ignition is not the sole realm of Lexus. It's gaining popularity across the marketplace. But I agree otherwise.

If not in the same place, at least we should expect that critical functionality be intuitive in some way. For example a start/stop pushbutton with a "panic" mode activated by pushing the button harder than usual, rather than longer. Or perhaps a kill switch on the steering column in the place once occupied by the ignition key.

Shift levers are going away too, being replaced by steering wheel paddles and whatnot. There needs to be similar thought given to an intuitive means of getting into neutral.

[Frank Lee]

Unlearning things seems to be harder than learning them.

I think they should make a bit more effort to standardize controls and placements thereof.

Many is the time I've groped in thin air for the (headlight switch, door handle, etc.) control when not in my usual vehicle.

[wagonman76]

3 second pushbutton to turn the car off... sounds like a ridiculous design. Not only having to wait when you could be running to something, but having one hand on the switch for that time and not being able to use it to control the vehicle.

Reminds me of the 15 second fire door at Lowes and other places I've seen. You've got flames roaring up your a$$, a sizzling hot metal door, and you've gotta push on it for 15 seconds straight for the door to open.

[cfg83]

wagonman76 -

In order to have the "elegant" one-button (no dashboard clutter!!!), they had to overload it's functionality. That's just like the el-cheapo MP3 players that have maybe 4 buttons or less to do 20 different things.

CarloSW2

[Weather Spotter]

#1 cops are not always better drivers, (my bother is a cop and drives like a maniac)
#2 push button ignition systems need to be hold 3 sec for on, push for off.
#3 people need to pratice on new vehiclas to become familar with the system.
#4 drive a manual then you can always get it into Neutral very fast.

[robchalmers]

I'll have to check the functionality, but i think our cars run a brake+press start/stop = kills the engine.

I'm absolutely stunned by talk of standardised placement of controls on cars. Hell its hard enough getting them to agree on Wheel studs! I feel its a bit lazy not to be aware of your car, I'll admit I've gone for the magic wand cruise from a merc when I've got back in my mrs's car but never the other way round, if its a loanerI normally take more careso it comes back in one piece!!!!

as for the Push button of death theory......Really??? I mean over here its pretty much standard on most makes. volvo, renault, toyota (expt Base Aygos), jag,honda,citreon all have atleast one main model with it fitted.
BUT and this is a BIG BUT, we do drive mainly sticks so if the car takes off its just a case of clutch,pop it in neutral , let it bounce off the rev limiter while you sort your self out and get to the shoulder.
I have had one run-away auto, a nissan micra, again it was a case of foot on brake( to fool the override), shifter to neutral and coast with PAS to the side of the road braking (with hazard flashers on)and then switch off when it came to a halt.