The danger of saving energy

[aerostealth]

Solar has nothing to do with saving money on energy and everything to do with reducing your carbon footprint. We are never going to be able to really start mitgating climate change until the powers that be get their head out of their asses and tax carbon appropriately. I have 5.1 KW of grid tie solar so i know what i am speaking about.

[changzuki]

All good points of discussion. Just remember that grid tie is kinda like electric cars - it's generally out of the grasp of the average working person. The folks who are not in any position to afford these luxuries may feel differently about it especially when they can't have what you have even with a huge subsidy. (Where exactly did that subsidy come from?) In the case of local property taxes increasing as a result leaves a bad feeling as well. A few posts back Frank Lee brushed on another facet: all the programs that have come and gone in regards to residential energy. This begs the question, is this just another one of them wearing a different veil? If you want to be carbon neutral as you say, how about going the extra mile and fight for getting the price per kwh your panels produce the same as the price per kwh you pay for. Or is grid electricity the super-unleaded of electrons and yours the dollar store version? I would add one more thing, If you need such a large system such as 5.1 kw to balance out a yearly energy use scenario, then the entire residential system its attached to is an energy hog - and I doubt there is really anything carbon neutral there when you get down to the inefficient nitty gritty of it.
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CrazyJerry

[Fat Charlie]

Actually, residential solar is a home improvement. Being able to say "this house produces $X worth of electricity every year" certainly changes the asking price compared to the otherwise identical house next door that produces $0 worth. Not taxing that imprivement is a local subsidy that comes at the expense of everyone else in town- the ones who can't afford to turn their houses into free electricity.

I work in what is basically retail. I don't buy things at retail, and I wouldn't expect the power company to buy electricity from me, a residential retail customer, at the retail rate that it sells to me at. Net metering is an amazing deal for homeowners and we shouldn't complain that the surplus that "The Fat Charlie Power & Light Co." produces gets bought at a wholesale rate.

[changzuki]

Good points Charlie.
My view is that as a technology, solar should stand on its own and should not be a subsidized. If this crux of the argument is being carbon neutral, then address the other inefficiencies first - don't just throw more energy at the problem
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Secondly, it's not free electricity. As you've mentioned there is a local subsidy or otherwise. There are no free lunches. When something is promoted with someone else's money - well, that's not my idea of free. Maybe it is for the beneficiary who had some upfront money to satisfy the conditions of said subsidy, but, it's not free.
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Understandably a utility company may not pay for electricity what they sell it to you for - however - the markup is interesting when one looks at some of the details. For example, in addition to not paying the same for the power as it is sold for, it is my understanding that some of these plans are capped, meaning, you cannot just generate endless amounts of power to be sold back to the power company. Anybody with info on this?
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Using your example of taxation for producing electricity with a house: do you feel this also applies to wind generation (attached to a house)? How about a diesel generator located in the house? How about an in-house bicycle generator? Are all these in the same basket, or, just the solar?
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Looking way down the road, when all these things are no longer producing and are not replaced, or a new home owner decides to have the system removed, will the home's value decrease accordingly? Solar landfills come to mind but who knows.
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On the surface all of this stuff looks pretty good but there are a ton of questions that seemingly don't have answers. If there are no concrete answers then someone may be in for a shocker at some point.
~CrazyJerry

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by aerostealth

Climate change represents a existential threat to humanity...

No, it doesn't.

I have never heard of a scientist listing global warming as possibly causing human extinction. There is a much higher chance of AI annihilating humanity, and that isn't looking probable considering the difficulty my Roomba has annihilating dirt on the floors. I'd put GW just below 7-Eleven 64oz Slurpees as a threat to overall human well-being.

Originally Posted by aerostealth

Solar has nothing to do with saving money on energy and everything to do with reducing your carbon footprint. We are never going to be able to really start mitgating climate change until the powers that be get their head out of their asses and tax carbon appropriately. I have 5.1 KW of grid tie solar so i know what i am speaking about.

Economics has everything to do with everything. Why should a person be concerned with reducing their carbon emissions when the benefits of doing so cannot even remotely be measured, yet the impact to their personal well-being can easily be measured? I'm not saying this is the right attitude that people have, just that fighting human nature is a loosing proposition.

Regardless, global warming won't even break the top 20 worst things to happen to humanity in the next 100 years. Humans directly harming humans is a much greater problem. Another top problem is nature harming humans with disease. I'd rank global warming at about the same threat level as people talking on their cell phone while driving. It seems most others agree with my assessment since, as you say, the powers that be have their heads in their asses.

[aerostealth]

Grid tie power should be paid for at the same base price we buy it for minus the transmission cost.

[Fat Charlie]

changzuki- The "free" electricity happens once the installation is done and the system just keeps producing electricity on its own.

Wind and diesel setups are permanently installed improvements that make for good selling points, no? Sounds like time to change the assessed value of the house. A wired-in bike might not, but who knows? Simply having the place wired for secondary input may be a significant improvement to some areas. As to letting your house fall into disrepair, I'm not your local assessor.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by changzuki

Just remember that grid tie is kinda like electric cars - it's generally out of the grasp of the average working person.

But there are companies like Solar City, which will install systems at zero upfront cost. OK, maybe not in northern New York, which isn't big on sunshine, but in many parts of the country. Heck, they even send me junk mail :-)

[greenfeeder]

I was just thinking about this and how no matter how much I try to save on costs I'm still required to pay a certain amount. It is annoying, but it is nice to see about some alternatives.

[user removed]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My sewer bill is $37/mo, regardless of use. I asked if I could be "disconnected" from sewer service, and was told that there is no way around paying the monthly sewer bill. The estate will have a lien placed on it if the county doesn't receive their sewer money.

LOL, but at least you get to crap on em!

regards
mech