Do we really need all that safety stuff?

[niky]

I've already pointed out that you can legally import Chinese UTVs and register them for a special low-speed road license (which, honestly, is all you'll be able to get for something like the Nano, as well, even if it were legal). But you'll need more than just six people to go with you. You'll need to buy at least a dozen (a hundred is preferable) to get bulk sale rates and to bring shipping down.

No need to add side mirrors and indicators for road-legality. They come standard already on many Chinese UTVs.

No AC, you may complain... well, the cars you're looking at, to get the prices you want, you have to buy variants without AC, power steering or ABS, already... and not just no AC... no blower, as well. (There's a test drive I didn't agree to. I'd rather not die of heat stroke in our typical 1 mile per hour gridlock) So it's all the same banana.

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RE: Pickups: Blame the chicken tax. A 25% tax is disincentive enough for anyone.

Though it's not so cut-and-dried... the compact class, I think, also died a natural death over the decades. Heck, even outside the USA, trucks are now huge. But still smaller than in America. All of the new pick-up launches feature trucks over 210" in length... far beyond the last American Rangaer.

And even then, the US Colorado was delayed as they banged out a few more inches of space in every dimension, just for the American market, for good measure.

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I think Brazil still gets small diesel pick-ups. And perhaps India. Everyone else is supersizing it, all the better to cope with bigger McDonald's-fed passenger payloads.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

You have completely missed the point. The first method you describe is not legal as you pointed out, the second method is not buying a car form India, it is assembling a car from India, that may or may not ever be allowed on the road. I don't want to build my own car, I want to buy a new simple cheep car. I don't want miles of red tape put up by the federal government designed to prevent just that, and to protect the big corporations already selling cars here. The "motorcycle" car is really the only option, I just hope India and China get to it as it looks like Elio never will.

I think you're missing the point

It isn't about weather it's as easy as stopping in a local Ford dealership ... You've been give 4 different legal paths to get the vehicle type you said you wanted ... the government is not what is stopping you from doing any of those 4 paths.

#1> Temporary extension while 'getting it modified to US safety standards'

The 1st option is legal .. as long as you continue to reapply and keep getting that rubber stamp on your extension ... you can keep doing that for years and years .. which as I posted , I've known people who have already done this very thing ... they told me they thought of it like renewing their registration ... I pointed out you can be fined if you don't get it renewed but still keep driving it ... same thing .. you can get fined if you don't renew your registration or insurance or license and keep driving... keep renewing it .. and you're legal .. just like those other things you renew.

#2> US Assembly under Kit Car Laws.

The 2nd was another legal option for you ... you don't have to assemble it yourself .. it just has to be assembled in the US under the far more permissible 'kit-car' legal classification ... If there is a big enough market for the product .. a business will open to fill that market need... Nothing stopping you from opening that business yourself (if you think there is a market).

#3> Chinese UTVs example

The 3rd was another legal path for you to get the car.

#4> Change the laws you don't like.
If you can get more than about 17% of the eligible voters to agree with you and turn out and vote with you ... you or anyone else can change any law (or remove any red tape) there is ... If you can't get 17% than you're a tiny minority .. and you'll have to stick with the above previous 3 options.

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Wishing you the best of luck (and looking forward to reading your thread) ... about your multi-year but ultimately successful legal path to the new vehicle type you desire.

[Hersbird]

You are wrong on all 4 counts. Maybe some of this stuff was legal before but the laws were substantially changed in the last decade. It's not the 25% tax keeping stuff out, there are specific new rules on the little trucks. They are cracking down on the UTVs. In no way are they anything like a car under current rules. Many places they are not street legal at all. Your people you used to know, who knows, I've checked and it's not legal for more then a year. No extensions, Carroll Shelby himself has had to disassemble beautiful cars he has built because of this rule. If he couldn't figure out a work around no way I could and that was 20 years ago, laws have only gotten tougher. Kit cars that are all new need to meet all current laws. the laws specifically say "Any attempt to use this policy to circumvent the Clean Air Act or the Imports regulations will be considered a violation of the Clean Air Act and will be strictly enforced."
The laws cannot be changed with 17% voter support, that is the funniest one of all your ideas and shows that you are not actually taking the discussion seriously.
Even if I was in the minority, and I probably am, it is good to know that there are still big thumb folks out there like you who seem to revel in forced conformity. I say live and let live.

[duncan]

The laws cannot be changed with 17% voter support,

Of course they can!
Especially if it's the "correct" 17%

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct...Md9dVLpsnitzUQ

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

The easiest way to circumvent safety regulations in the U.S. seems to be those sandrail buggies. But the emissions issue seems to be enforced kinda strictly.

Originally Posted by niky

I think Brazil still gets small diesel pick-ups. And perhaps India.

If you're talking about coupe-utilities such as the Fiat Strada, their Diesel versions are made only for export. If they had either Hi-Lo 4WD or could carry one metric ton they could be also available in the domestic market.

[niky]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

You are wrong on all 4 counts. Maybe some of this stuff was legal before but the laws were substantially changed in the last decade. It's not the 25% tax keeping stuff out, there are specific new rules on the little trucks. They are cracking down on the UTVs. In no way are they anything like a car under current rules. Many places they are not street legal at all.

UTV Road Licensing in some states was only ratified within the last decade.

It will vary from state to state.

Also... who's cracking down on ATVs?

Consumer Federation Releases Report on ATVs on Roads: States Are Increasingly Allowing ATVs on Roads Despite Warnings from Industry, Advocates and Federal Government

for several years an increasing number of states have passed laws allowing ATVs on public roads

And that includes Montana:

MONTANA OFF-HIGHWAY VEHICLE (OHV) LAWS

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The 25% tax effectively prevents manufacturers from importing foreign-made pick-up trucks, while they can import cars however they see fit. (the Ford Transit Connect has to be imported with extra jump seats, which are then removed before sale, to avoid the tax... can't be done with a cheap bare-bones pick-up without jacking up the price.)

What happens then is that all pick-ups need to be American made. Not a problem, Nissan and Toyota build their mid-sized trucks in America.

But if you want small pick-ups, you have to import them, because they won't sell in America in the numbers needed to justify tooling up an entire factory just for the American market. (And they won't make trucks meant for Asia or South America in the USA, either... because they won't make the price point needed to compete there.)

So, yes. The 25% tax is part of what's keeping those foreign trucks out. If it was just diesel emission or safety laws keeping them out, that's not a big deal. These trucks are sold in Europe and have to comply with NCAP and Euro emissions regulations. The trucks would still get more expensive due to urea injection, but manufacturers might be able to absorb the expense... if only they didn't have to absorb that and still sell the trucks for 25% more.

Strange that you're so incensed by safety laws keeping cars out of the USA but won't accept the idea that there are other regulatory and tarriff barriers keeping cars out.

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Hell, it isn't just the fact that you have safety and emission laws. Everyone has those nowadays. It's the fact that the US refuses to align its laws with everyone else's.

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And even when you bring down those barriers... in the end, the American consumer will not buy cheap trucks in big enough numbers to justify them being marketed there. Sadly.

[Fat Charlie]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

You have completely missed the point... I don't want to build my own car, I want to buy a new simple cheep car. I don't want miles of red tape...

Custom costs.

You want a company to design, build, market and distribute a vehicle then provide you with a parts supply chain and warranty support. You want to ride the economy of scale that the entire motoring public provides while demanding a product that the rest of the market doesn't want. Then you make it even more laughable by demanding your custom spec at a price that the mass market doesn't meet on it's own.

In related news... My wife is from just outside NYC and has very particular ideas about what constitutes a good pizza. There's a pizza place a mile away from our house, the type of pizza she likes is perfectly legal in New Hampshire and she only wants one slice. To her credit, she understands that while the exact slice of pizza she wants is inexpensive on its own, there isn't enough of a market in our area to support that and she can't compare it to the fact that Domino's can deliver a whole pizza for $5.99.

The stories about your car wants and my wife's pizza wants are mainly different in that she understands the market forces better.

[Hersbird]

As of 2008 even with the 25% tax they are illegal Change in Non-Compliant Mini-Truck Importations | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

[Hersbird]

No fat Charlie I want to be able to call my guy in India and have him put 6 of those little cars in a shipping container and send them to Portland Oregon without being stopped by customs. Nobody has to do anything besides me and him and some dock workers. That is the key, the government doesn't outlaw pizzas.

[Fat Charlie]

I don't need to count on someone else's pizza being able to stop at a red light. Pizzas don't shut down major intersections while bodies are getting hosed out of them and there's no used pizza market where people get stuck eating the cheapest pizza on the lot just because it's there.

So you're right, they get regulated differently- but the FDA and the local health department would resent any implication that pizza isn't regulated at all, and just try getting a pizza with cheese made from raw milk out of grass fed antibiotic-free cows. Even though it would be just as perfectly legal as your dream car, there isn't a big enough market for that to make it practical at anyone's desired price point.

So either pay what it costs to get your dream pizza on the road, make your own pizza at home, or eat the pizza that your local market has decided it wants and stop complaining that the pizza in another market tastes better.