Dreaming...lean burn manual taller transmission Civic sedan...or get an Insight

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

I would totally look into it if I were back home from college and had my current car de-ecomodded and sold.

It really looks promising if I could go for it. The blue color is gorgeous, the IMA light just came on so grid charging for a while is still a possibility, and the instrument panel buttons can be replaced with 3d printed ones from IC, right? Only issue really would be the musty smell that even a professional detailer couldn't remove. And of course the checklist.

EDIT: Per the seller's listing, he/she seems acquainted with Insight Central, and has had a lifetime fuel economy of 59.9 MPG.

That's not too bad a lifetime mileage. Mine is around 65 I think, but I have Vermont winters to contend with, and used to tow a trailer with some frequency. The low miles of the car are very encouraging.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

What if I only had it grid charge to 80% or 90% capacity and set the ECU accordingly? Rather than overcharging and damaging it - would 80% or 90% still damage the battery?

How would you know when you've reached 80% or 90%?

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Is the CEL due to your IMA bypass?

Yeah, the only other CEL(s) my car has ever had are from 1) a fuel injector kill switch, which would rarely cause a CEL which went away the next time I started the car, or 2) when my father-in-law drove the car for 700 miles with one of the spark plugs disconnected, and gummed up the catalytic converter.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Naturally with such a set up regen and assist wouldn't work (right?) but even with a different battery setup couldn't I still maintain Auto Stop? Or would this be more complex than just wiring up a regular kill switch (again I'm leaning toward a hybrid-disabled Insight setup).

A Nissan Leaf battery is like $5500...

There HAS to be a way to maintain at least SOME of the hybrid capability for an indefinite period of time apart from buying new batteries. Even grid charging like y'all do doesn't last forever. And, of course, without spending $$$$.

The Insight differs from the Civic Hybrid in that it's old enough that practically all of the signaling is analog. There's no CANBUS, no data streams, it's all just PWM and voltage. You can spoof any signal between ECU and IMA with tools you could have bought in the 1950's. With a little bit of education, it would not be unfeasible to have a system behave like stock, only with an entirely different controller and battery. Have you considered going into electrical engineering?

Some facts I've found with my IMA bypass:

The main ECU is what calls for auto-stop, and probably what calls for assist and regen as well. My car will actually go into auto-stop every time I hit the brakes if I spoof the battery SOC too high. The only problem is that there's no IMA to restart it so I end up having to start the car every time I dip below 20mph with the brakes on.

If you wanted to replace everything in the back (motor controller, battery, computers), it would be a lot easier than just replacing the battery. It's a matter of reading what the ECU is requesting, which would be an analog signal on its own dedicated wire (clearly labeled in the car's wiring diagram) going to the back of the car, and just using those as inputs for what would otherwise be an independent fully electric system. That's what the Insight's IMA system is, basically - all you need for an independent EV, but with the computer for the gas engine's computer controlling throttle. It wasn't well integrated at all. You could kill the gas engine and run on electricity alone if the battery were big enough and the motor a little more powerful.

However, JUST replacing the battery and none of the other electronics in the back of the car is a much more difficult task. If you drop a lithium battery in and try to use the car's stock motor controller and battery controller, it tries to treat the lithium battery like a NiMH battery, which might kill a lithium battery, but not before the car became very upset that it wasn't behaving like a NiMH battery.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Alright, that's comforting confirmation. So if ecomodded Metros can get 60-70 MPG than an IMA-bypassed Insight should be good for 80 MPG...maybe?

It's more difficult to get consistently high mileage without the battery, but with more effort or ideal conditions you can still do it. This was my trip home from visiting another Insight owner earlier this evening. No pulse and glide, no EoC, just put the car in 5th gear and drove. No traffic on the roads and few stop signs helped.




My commute in the morning I typically get around 57-63mpg - it's mostly uphill. On my way home I deal with bad traffic but it's downhill, so I get more like 65mpg. At my previous job I was getting ~70mpg on my commute both ways without the battery.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

That's not too bad a lifetime mileage. Mine is around 65 I think, but I have Vermont winters to contend with, and used to tow a trailer with some frequency. The low miles of the car are very encouraging.

Yes, it's definitely a car I'd seriously consider were I back home on break from college.

Originally Posted by Ecky

How would you know when you've reached 80% or 90%?

Wouldn't there be a way to test the voltage and have the grid charger turn off at a certain point?

Originally Posted by Ecky

Yeah, the only other CEL(s) my car has ever had are from 1) a fuel injector kill switch, which would rarely cause a CEL which went away the next time I started the car, or 2) when my father-in-law drove the car for 700 miles with one of the spark plugs disconnected, and gummed up the catalytic converter.

Is the CEL disabled, or have you tricked the computer into thinking you're still running the IMA? Makes sense how you can have learn burn now if you don't have the CEL.

Originally Posted by Ecky

The Insight differs from the Civic Hybrid in that it's old enough that practically all of the signaling is analog. There's no CANBUS, no data streams, it's all just PWM and voltage. You can spoof any signal between ECU and IMA with tools you could have bought in the 1950's. With a little bit of education, it would not be unfeasible to have a system behave like stock, only with an entirely different controller and battery. Have you considered going into electrical engineering?

I'm actually studying computer engineering, and there are 3 or 4 basic electrical engineering courses required.

Originally Posted by Ecky

Some facts I've found with my IMA bypass:

The main ECU is what calls for auto-stop, and probably what calls for assist and regen as well. My car will actually go into auto-stop every time I hit the brakes if I spoof the battery SOC too high. The only problem is that there's no IMA to restart it so I end up having to start the car every time I dip below 20mph with the brakes on.

Sounds like a good idea...why the 20 MPH barrier?

I wonder if there would be a way to make the car auto restart once put back into gear even without the IMA, kind of like modern fuel injected vehicles do. Like have a switch that enabled an arduino to turn the car off whenever it was in neutral and back on whenever taken out of gear.

Originally Posted by Ecky

If you wanted to replace everything in the back (motor controller, battery, computers), it would be a lot easier than just replacing the battery. It's a matter of reading what the ECU is requesting, which would be an analog signal on its own dedicated wire (clearly labeled in the car's wiring diagram) going to the back of the car, and just using those as inputs for what would otherwise be an independent fully electric system. That's what the Insight's IMA system is, basically - all you need for an independent EV, but with the computer for the gas engine's computer controlling throttle. It wasn't well integrated at all. You could kill the gas engine and run on electricity alone if the battery were big enough and the motor a little more powerful.

This sounds so delightful and yet so expensive and complex at the same time!

Originally Posted by Ecky

It's more difficult to get consistently high mileage without the battery, but with more effort or ideal conditions you can still do it. This was my trip home from visiting another Insight owner earlier this evening. No pulse and glide, no EoC, just put the car in 5th gear and drove. No traffic on the roads and few stop signs helped.

[IMG]


My commute in the morning I typically get around 57-63mpg - it's mostly uphill. On my way home I deal with bad traffic but it's downhill, so I get more like 65mpg. At my previous job I was getting ~70mpg on my commute both ways without the battery.

That's really good. Do you find that CC reduces your fuel economy significantly? I know using CC in my Civic reduced fuel economy by 10%-20% depending on terrain.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Wouldn't there be a way to test the voltage and have the grid charger turn off at a certain point?

Not really, no. The only way to know for sure what's in it is to charge it to full and see when it stops charging, or to count how much goes in and out.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Is the CEL disabled, or have you tricked the computer into thinking you're still running the IMA? Makes sense how you can have learn burn now if you don't have the CEL.

The ECU up front still thinks the IMA is in place. Just a couple of very simple signals, not even digital. It doesn't try to use it because it thinks the battery is empty.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Sounds like a good idea...why the 20 MPH barrier?

I wonder if there would be a way to make the car auto restart once put back into gear even without the IMA, kind of like modern fuel injected vehicles do. Like have a switch that enabled an arduino to turn the car off whenever it was in neutral and back on whenever taken out of gear.

~20mph (or below) is the default speed at which auto-stop happens. It's more like 22mph, or 19mph sometimes. I bet you could use an arduino to program in full auto-restart even without the IMA.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

That's really good. Do you find that CC reduces your fuel economy significantly? I know using CC in my Civic reduced fuel economy by 10%-20% depending on terrain.

Not really, because the car isn't powerful enough to climb more than the gentlest of inclines without shifting gears, at least without the IMA. There are fairly limited circumstances where I can use it, or at least turn it on and not have to worry about it. Pedal to the floor in 5th gear still delivers 50mpg, you have to downshift to get any worse fuel economy.


I really like the G1, but honestly if I had $8,000 for a car today that I didn't own, I'm unsure if I would buy an Insight and do a lot of in-depth modifications, since there are several wonderful plug-in hybrid options. A car like a Chevy Volt can drive on electricity alone for ~50 miles for lower cost-per-mile than a hypermiled Insight, and delivers ~40-45mph on gasoline afterward.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think a G1 Insight with a Volt or Accord Hybrid or Ioniq drivetrain would be damn near the ultimate car, but there are several great off-the-shelf options out there. None of them are aluminum, or as small or light, but technology has improved in the last 18 years.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Not really, no. The only way to know for sure what's in it is to charge it to full and see when it stops charging, or to count how much goes in and out.

Ugh, that sucks. So much for that idea.

Originally Posted by Ecky

The ECU up front still thinks the IMA is in place. Just a couple of very simple signals, not even digital. It doesn't try to use it because it thinks the battery is empty.

Nice! So then do you or do you not have autostop?

Originally Posted by Ecky

~20mph (or below) is the default speed at which auto-stop happens. It's more like 22mph, or 19mph sometimes. I bet you could use an arduino to program in full auto-restart even without the IMA.

I will. Or I will at least attempt to until I can. We're learning arduinos in my engineering class and I hope to take it further with an Insight next year. Would it be possible also to do some sort of mod, maybe an arduino, to allow for more lean burn - maybe spoof something a little (obviously not enough to kill the cat or the engine)? I'm already planning on wiring up a lean burn indicator light.

Pedal to the floor in 5th gear still delivers 50mpg, you have to downshift to get any worse fuel economy.

Wow. In my Civic pedal to the floor in 4th gear only delivers 18.5-20 MPG.

Originally Posted by Ecky

I really like the G1, but honestly if I had $8,000 for a car today that I didn't own, I'm unsure if I would buy an Insight and do a lot of in-depth modifications, since there are several wonderful plug-in hybrid options. A car like a Chevy Volt can drive on electricity alone for ~50 miles for lower cost-per-mile than a hypermiled Insight, and delivers ~40-45mph on gasoline afterward.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think a G1 Insight with a Volt or Accord Hybrid or Ioniq drivetrain would be damn near the ultimate car, but there are several great off-the-shelf options out there. None of them are aluminum, or as small or light, but technology has improved in the last 18 years.

Problem is, I don't have $8000 I'm willing to spend on a car. For an Insight based on the prices I'm seeing I'm shooting for $2500 or less, all inclusive.

[Xist]

I can relate. I never know how hungry I am until I am so full that I hate myself.

The MPGuino accurately measures how much gas is used. Has anyone tried measuring how much charge has gone in and out?

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Nice! So then do you or do you not have autostop?

I have auto-stop disabled. It's too unpredictable, without any auto restart. I might pull into an intersection, only to have the computer decide it's time to kill the engine. I could have it if I wanted, but I'd probably instead choose to just use an injector kill switch without the IMA installed.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

I will. Or I will at least attempt to until I can. We're learning arduinos in my engineering class and I hope to take it further with an Insight next year. Would it be possible also to do some sort of mod, maybe an arduino, to allow for more lean burn - maybe spoof something a little (obviously not enough to kill the cat or the engine)? I'm already planning on wiring up a lean burn indicator light.

The Insight can lean burn 99% of the time once the coolant reaches 150 degrees or so. It can lean burn in any gear, at any speed below ~75mph. I don't think there are any RPM limits, but admittedly I've never checked for lean burn above 4k - why would you want to? Only reason to rev that high is when you need power. It drops out of lean burn only if you demand more power than can be provided in lean burn, so if you're light on the throttle you can have it as much as you want.

Easiest way to check for lean burn is with an OBD II dongle and the Torque app. The computer reports are fuel ratio... but frankly with the Insight's very nice fuel consumption display (FCD), you can tell when you have it without needing a light, once once you know what to look for.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Wow. In my Civic pedal to the floor in 4th gear only delivers 18.5-20 MPG.

Yeah it's an indicator of just how tiny the engine is, and just how tall 5th gear is. The top gear is taller than most V8s I've been in.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Problem is, I don't have $8000 I'm willing to spend on a car. For an Insight based on the prices I'm seeing I'm shooting for $2500 or less, all inclusive.

I get that. It's a hard car to beat, if you're looking for a super thrifty, reliable, inexpensive car. Even with all of its quirks and its few glaring flaws, it's still a great vehicle.

And, I'm actually dumping close to 10 grand into mine, so I'm one to talk. I love my car, and it's maybe not the most rational way to spend my money, but I'm psyched to be getting a vehicle which will beat a Lamborghini Diablo down a drag strip, put a refrigerator in the back, and still be able to deliver 60mpg+ on the highway.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I have auto-stop disabled. It's too unpredictable, without any auto restart. I might pull into an intersection, only to have the computer decide it's time to kill the engine. I could have it if I wanted, but I'd probably instead choose to just use an injector kill switch without the IMA installed.

Why not wire something up that controls autostop so it turns off in neutral and turns back on when you put it back in gear? And then of course have a button to disable the feature so you can start your car in the first place.

Originally Posted by Ecky

The Insight can lean burn 99% of the time once the coolant reaches 150 degrees or so. It can lean burn in any gear, at any speed below ~75mph. I don't think there are any RPM limits, but admittedly I've never checked for lean burn above 4k - why would you want to? Only reason to rev that high is when you need power. It drops out of lean burn only if you demand more power than can be provided in lean burn, so if you're light on the throttle you can have it as much as you want.

Is the learn burn then better than the lean burn in the VX and HX?

Originally Posted by Ecky

Easiest way to check for lean burn is with an OBD II dongle and the Torque app. The computer reports are fuel ratio... but frankly with the Insight's very nice fuel consumption display (FCD), you can tell when you have it without needing a light, once once you know what to look for.

I was planning on continuing to use Torque to monitor engine temps, so I might as well use it for AF ratio too. I'm debating on getting a Scangauge E too since doesn't the Insight have an annoying delay in between updating live and trip fuel economy readings?

Originally Posted by Ecky

I get that. It's a hard car to beat, if you're looking for a super thrifty, reliable, inexpensive car. Even with all of its quirks and its few glaring flaws, it's still a great vehicle.

For sure. And heck, I might even be the youngest Gen 1 Insight owner when I get one!

Originally Posted by Ecky

And, I'm actually dumping close to 10 grand into mine, so I'm one to talk. I love my car, and it's maybe not the most rational way to spend my money, but I'm psyched to be getting a vehicle which will beat a Lamborghini Diablo down a drag strip, put a refrigerator in the back, and still be able to deliver 60mpg+ on the highway.

I want to see that video.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Why not wire something up that controls autostop so it turns off in neutral and turns back on when you put it back in gear? And then of course have a button to disable the feature so you can start your car in the first place.

Maybe I would if I planned to keep the engine in longer. It could be done, but it's not as trivial as it sounds. My opinion, you don't want a car that doesn't auto-restart to choose when to kill its engine. Better to just have a manual kill switch if removing the IMA. HOWEVER, even a severely degraded IMA battery can still perform auto-stop, even long after it loses ability to assist and regen.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Is the learn burn then better than the lean burn in the VX and HX?

Unsure. Lean burn is really generous in the G1 Insight, and it goes all the way out to a ~24:1 AFR. With the pedal "to the floor" in lean burn (not literally, but as far as you can press it before it jumps out of lean burn), you can't get less than 75mpg in 5th gear, and ~60mpg in 4th gear. I've never owned a VX or HX so I can't compare.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

I was planning on continuing to use Torque to monitor engine temps, so I might as well use it for AF ratio too. I'm debating on getting a Scangauge E too since doesn't the Insight have an annoying delay in between updating live and trip fuel economy readings?

I'll take a video sometime soon. Live fuel economy updates instantly - it's a little bar at the bottom of the FCD which moves back and forth as you apply throttle, and it was the prototype for the system Honda now uses in every new vehicle. Some, like the Fit, I don't think received this system until 2015 (?), but it's essentially unchanged from how it was in the Insight in 2000.

The trip average mileages refresh something like every 30 seconds, but you can force a refresh by tapping the FCD button to the left of the steering wheel.

The Insight has five ways to keep track of mileage:

1) Instantaneous mileage, displayed as a bar from 0 to 150 at the bottom of the display.

2) "Current" or mileage, which you can reset whenever but doesn't auto reset. I typically reset this before I leave the house, or use it to track averages over a short stretch of road.

3) "Trip 1" can be reset whenever you want, doesn't auto-reset. I typically reset this every tank.

4) "Trip 2", can be reset whenever you want, doesn't auto-reset. I might use this to track an entire road trip, to get an average over several tanks.

5) Lifetime mileage. This can be reset, but not easily. I reset this when I got my car and it's close to 65 - I think 67ish?

You can also toggle back and forth between imperial and metric units, there's a button on the dash which puts it into L/100km. It's really a very... robust system.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

HOWEVER, even a severely degraded IMA battery can still perform auto-stop, even long after it loses ability to assist and regen.

That's good to know. Maybe I won't remove the IMA after all. I'm assuming a degraded IMA still charges the 12V enough so I wouldn't have to wire up that DC-DC thingy to avoid the 12V only charging between 1400 and 3500 RPMs?

Originally Posted by Ecky

Unsure. Lean burn is really generous in the G1 Insight, and it goes all the way out to a ~24:1 AFR. With the pedal "to the floor" in lean burn (not literally, but as far as you can press it before it jumps out of lean burn), you can't get less than 75mpg in 5th gear, and ~60mpg in 4th gear. I've never owned a VX or HX so I can't compare.

That is just insanely amazing.

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'll take a video sometime soon.

Know of anyone with a lambo?

Originally Posted by Ecky

Live fuel economy updates instantly - it's a little bar at the bottom of the FCD which moves back and forth as you apply throttle, and it was the prototype for the system Honda now uses in every new vehicle.

Cool, so I won't need a Scangauge then.

Originally Posted by Ecky

Some, like the Fit, I don't think received this system until 2015 (?), but it's essentially unchanged from how it was in the Insight in 2000.

Fit received it in 2009.

Originally Posted by Ecky

The trip average mileages refresh something like every 30 seconds, but you can force a refresh by tapping the FCD button to the left of the steering wheel.

The Insight has five ways to keep track of mileage:

1) Instantaneous mileage, displayed as a bar from 0 to 150 at the bottom of the display.

2) "Current" or mileage, which you can reset whenever but doesn't auto reset. I typically reset this before I leave the house, or use it to track averages over a short stretch of road.

3) "Trip 1" can be reset whenever you want, doesn't auto-reset. I typically reset this every tank.

4) "Trip 2", can be reset whenever you want, doesn't auto-reset. I might use this to track an entire road trip, to get an average over several tanks.

5) Lifetime mileage. This can be reset, but not easily. I reset this when I got my car and it's close to 65 - I think 67ish?

You can also toggle back and forth between imperial and metric units, there's a button on the dash which puts it into L/100km. It's really a very... robust system.

Again, that's just insane. I really can't believe why people never went for this car.

Speaking of the buttons, if the buttons are broken they can be replaced with 3D printed ones from IC, right?

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Xist

I can relate. I never know how hungry I am until I am so full that I hate myself.

The MPGuino accurately measures how much gas is used. Has anyone tried measuring how much charge has gone in and out?

The Insight's ECU does that for displaying on the battery level on the car..