Dreaming...lean burn manual taller transmission Civic sedan...or get an Insight

[teoman]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Well if its 100a thats only 0.83 amps per cell so that wouldn't be a big deal but I do see what you're saying. The system would need a lot of alteration as 120 1.2V cells in series is just not going to work at all for 3.6V lithium cells.
https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/Specificati...22.08.2014.pdf

Unfortunately that is not how series and parallel circuits work.

[hayden55]

Originally Posted by teoman

Unfortunately that is not how series and parallel circuits work.

Oops I looked into and I messed up on that statement, Really wild that they used only series connections for their pack. Those are for sure some power cells (discharge wise). An interesting take... I see that since that hybrids have a much higher c rate of use than electric cars and devices these would be a poor choice lol.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

I'm back home on Thanksgiving break for the week and looking into purchasing an Insight for what I can sell my Civic for.

I have 3 options:

- Silver 2000 w/ 252K miles, $3100 (might take $2600 if no one offers higher). Engine replaced, transmission fixed, strong IMA (6yrs), literally everything fixed or replaced within the last 60K miles.

- Silver 2000 w/ 150K miles, $3500 (might take $3100). Mint condition but original parts, decent IMA (6yrs).

- Red 2000 w/ 78K miles, $2850 obo. Mint condition exterior and interior, small engine oil leak, unknown IMA condition, no maintenance records (so would have to inspect it for all the common issues). No 3rd-2nd downshift grind. AC doesn't work (but I wasn't planning on ever using AC). CEL and maintenance lights on; not sure what for yet (have to ask the seller). Could be cats and O2 sensors...would deleting the cat if it was bad hurt MPG if I overrode the CEL? Also, would a dirty EGR plate cause a CEL? How complicated is that for a mechanics noob to clean?

Planning on bypassing IMA anyway eventually when it dies (since I don't drive consistently enough to keep an IMA battery healthy) so IMA quality isn't key except for negotiation. All the Insights come with Bridgestone Potenzas.

Red one seems the best deal, although it seems to have the most potential for issues down the road. What is the most common cause for an Insight engine oil leak, and how easy is it to repair? I know some cars require and engine rebuild, and some are simple (my Civic had a tiny one due to a missing plug. $10 later and leak free).

Owner of the red one just bought it 2 months ago and claims he needs money for Christmas. Previous owner owned it for 15 years since 2003 (would be interested in talking to him if at all possible).

Thoughts?

[19bonestock88]

That silver one with 252k doesn’t seem too bad... IMA pack is good and most parts serviced/replaced recently...

Everyone says the engines can last over 400k with minimal maintenance, but if you’re worried, find a spare engine and plan to swap it at some point (ideally you’d rebuild the spare in the interim)...

Since you plan on deleting the IMA, you could also consider a K swap; you’ll still get terrific mileage with the right combination of parts and hypermiling, and it’ll be genuinely fast

Above all I’d see what you can get out of your Civic first before considering any of the three listed choices

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

I'm back home on Thanksgiving break for the week and looking into purchasing an Insight for what I can sell my Civic for.

I have 3 options:

- Silver 2000 w/ 252K miles, $3100 (might take $2600 if no one offers higher). Engine replaced, transmission fixed, strong IMA (6yrs), literally everything fixed or replaced within the last 60K miles.

- Silver 2000 w/ 150K miles, $3500 (might take $3100). Mint condition but original parts, decent IMA (6yrs).

- Red 2000 w/ 78K miles, $2850 obo. Mint condition exterior and interior, small engine oil leak, unknown IMA condition, no maintenance records (so would have to inspect it for all the common issues). No 3rd-2nd downshift grind. AC doesn't work (but I wasn't planning on ever using AC). CEL and maintenance lights on; not sure what for yet (have to ask the seller). Could be cats and O2 sensors...would deleting the cat if it was bad hurt MPG if I overrode the CEL? Also, would a dirty EGR plate cause a CEL? How complicated is that for a mechanics noob to clean?

Planning on bypassing IMA anyway eventually when it dies (since I don't drive consistently enough to keep an IMA battery healthy) so IMA quality isn't key except for negotiation. All the Insights come with Bridgestone Potenzas.

Red one seems the best deal, although it seems to have the most potential for issues down the road. What is the most common cause for an Insight engine oil leak, and how easy is it to repair? I know some cars require and engine rebuild, and some are simple (my Civic had a tiny one due to a missing plug. $10 later and leak free).

Owner of the red one just bought it 2 months ago and claims he needs money for Christmas. Previous owner owned it for 15 years since 2003 (would be interested in talking to him if at all possible).

Thoughts?

My main concern are that they're Michigan vehicles (?). Michigan has salt, and very little culture of protecting vehicles from salt because there are no state inspections. In Vermont, a vehicle with a CEL is taken off the road and not allowed back on until the CEL is gone, period. Cars that have structural rust on brake lines are taken off the road until it's fixed, even if they haven't burst yet. Cars with holes in the exhaust are taken off the road. Cars with holes in rocker panels, or other decently large spots in some critical areas of the unibody are taken off the road. Cars with a clogged catalytic converter or bad O2 sensor get fixed or are taken off the road. Most vehicles are undercoated and washed frequently to protect from salt, because the state orders your car off the road otherwise.

Now, the Insight won't get holes in the body or rocker panels, but maybe 5% of the vehicle is still steel: brake lines, brake rotors, rear torsion bar, front sway bar + links, exhaust, bolts...

Brake lines can be replaced. A rusted-out exhaust can be a pain and expensive if someone needs to take a torch to it, but it can be replaced. The rear torsion bar could be a bigger deal, but I've never heard of one rusting through. Still, 18 years and 250k miles of Michigan winters could, in a worst case scenario, make a few parts of the car very nasty to work on.

Personally, all three sound overpriced. I would hope to badger the owners down at least $500, possible more. There's one currently on sale (pending but not sold) on Insight Central with 136k miles for $2000, another with 71k miles for $2500, and one with 225k for $1500.

Regarding specific issues, a 252k mile car is most likely to have some salt-related damage to things like exhaust and brake lines, though it may be spotless, you'd just have to see. For that price, it better be.

Some of these cars weep a small amount of oil around the timing chain cover. Sometimes tightening the bolts a hair fixes it. It never gets bad enough to warrant pulling the engine to fix, and the oil loss won't even be visible on the dipstick between oil changes. This to me is very likely a non-issue.

Deleting the catalyst will prevent you from registering the car in many states, but even a CEL for a bad cat will not affect economy. Some states will look for O2 sensor spacers that would shut the CEL off, so it may not be an option.

I have not heard of a dirty EGR valve or plate causing a CEL. It can affect drivability in lean burn, and may have a small impact on economy. It can also cause an engine to burn a little oil, which would go away once the valve or plate is replaced/cleaned. These are very easy parts to get to and replace, little harder than changing the oil.

While you may not care about the condition of the IMA, in my opinion it could weigh heavily in price negotiation. A bad IMA battery will (without fooling the computers)) prevent these cars from being registered or put on the road in many states. Fuel economy is lower without the IMA - I'm seeing 10-20% now that the weather is cooling off - and they're less fun to drive.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by 19bonestock88

That silver one with 252k doesn’t seem too bad... IMA pack is good and most parts serviced/replaced recently...

That's what I was thinking. He has put A LOT of work into that car and is asking $3100...I offered $2600 but it will depend on if he receives any higher offers. He is in the process of reinstalling the rebuilt transmission and fixing the rear main seal (oil leak) before selling and is currently on pause for a bit due to a family situation.

Everyone says the engines can last over 400k with minimal maintenance, but if you’re worried, find a spare engine and plan to swap it at some point (ideally you’d rebuild the spare in the interim)...

I don't know how to do that....yet.

Since you plan on deleting the IMA, you could also consider a K swap; you’ll still get terrific mileage with the right combination of parts and hypermiling, and it’ll be genuinely fast

I'm doing this all for MPG; a K-swap would defeat the purpose of having cheap and fuel efficient driving.

Above all I’d see what you can get out of your Civic first before considering any of the three listed choices

Already have a couple prospective buyers at $3500 for it.

Originally Posted by Ecky

My main concern are that they're Michigan vehicles (?). Michigan has salt, and very little culture of protecting vehicles from salt because there are no state inspections. In Vermont, a vehicle with a CEL is taken off the road and not allowed back on until the CEL is gone, period. Cars that have structural rust on brake lines are taken off the road until it's fixed, even if they haven't burst yet. Cars with holes in the exhaust are taken off the road. Cars with holes in rocker panels, or other decently large spots in some critical areas of the unibody are taken off the road. Cars with a clogged catalytic converter or bad O2 sensor get fixed or are taken off the road. Most vehicles are undercoated and washed frequently to protect from salt, because the state orders your car off the road otherwise.

Now, the Insight won't get holes in the body or rocker panels, but maybe 5% of the vehicle is still steel: brake lines, brake rotors, rear torsion bar, front sway bar + links, exhaust, bolts...

Brake lines can be replaced. A rusted-out exhaust can be a pain and expensive if someone needs to take a torch to it, but it can be replaced. The rear torsion bar could be a bigger deal, but I've never heard of one rusting through. Still, 18 years and 250k miles of Michigan winters could, in a worst case scenario, make a few parts of the car very nasty to work on.

The 252K is Michigan, the 150K is Kentucky, and the 78K is Pennyslvania. I wouldn't buy a car with excessive rust. I'd have to clarify first to verify though.

Originally Posted by Ecky

Personally, all three sound overpriced. I would hope to badger the owners down at least $500, possible more. There's one currently on sale (pending but not sold) on Insight Central with 136k miles for $2000, another with 71k miles for $2500, and one with 225k for $1500.

Yeah, I saw the 136K mile one on there, but it was too far away. The 71K has structural damage...and the 225K one has issues plus being 225K miles old..

Originally Posted by Ecky

Deleting the catalyst will prevent you from registering the car in many states, but even a CEL for a bad cat will not affect economy. Some states will look for O2 sensor spacers that would shut the CEL off, so it may not be an option.

That's just for states with inspections though, right? I've heard that a cat replacement is $1200...but replacement are available on ebay for like $250?

Originally Posted by Ecky

I have not heard of a dirty EGR valve or plate causing a CEL. It can affect drivability in lean burn, and may have a small impact on economy. It can also cause an engine to burn a little oil, which would go away once the valve or plate is replaced/cleaned. These are very easy parts to get to and replace, little harder than changing the oil.

Just did a binge-read on Insight Central about EGR cleaning. Doesn't look too bad..

Originally Posted by Ecky

While you may not care about the condition of the IMA, in my opinion it could weigh heavily in price negotiation. A bad IMA battery will (without fooling the computers)) prevent these cars from being registered or put on the road in many states. Fuel economy is lower without the IMA - I'm seeing 10-20% now that the weather is cooling off - and they're less fun to drive.

IMA battery quality would definitely be a huge negotiation point, but I wouldn't object to buying one with a dead battery. I'd love to be able to maintain one, it's just that during the months I'm in college I'll be using the car once or twice a week. In the summer I'd be using it daily. So it would be harder for me to maintain a battery's lifespan, and it wouldn't justify replacing the pack whenever it died.

Are you saying that the IMA battery helps reduce typical winter fuel economy losses?

[Ecky]

-Catalyst price seems to be in proportion to the amount of precious metals in them, which correlates to how well they work, and how long they'll last. A $250 unit may not actually be able to shut off the CEL, since the Insight has such low tolerances in emissions. My leaning would be to put an O2 fooler on instead even though it's (technically) illegal, since the car is still cleaner than 99.9% of vehicles on the road with a cat just degraded enough to set off a CEL. If it's found in a state with inspections, they generally just tell you to take it off and fix the cat properly.

-IMA battery would generally show the most gains in winter, yes. In a climate warm year-round you'd likely see little to no difference. The car still delivers great economy, of course.

The silver with 150k sounds most like mine was, and comes from the state with the least salt. The red by virtue of fewest miles would have the least exposure and wear on most parts. The 252k mile car could be a good choice depending on how clean it is, but remember that everything not replaced has that much more wear on it compared to the others - things like the seats, bushings, cables, etc.

[Xist]

I had a CEL, cleaned the EGR, and my fuel economy improved:

Increased MPG by 6-13% by cleaning EGR passages!

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

-Catalyst price seems to be in proportion to the amount of precious metals in them, which correlates to how well they work, and how long they'll last. A $250 unit may not actually be able to shut off the CEL, since the Insight has such low tolerances in emissions. My leaning would be to put an O2 fooler on instead even though it's (technically) illegal, since the car is still cleaner than 99.9% of vehicles on the road with a cat just degraded enough to set off a CEL. If it's found in a state with inspections, they generally just tell you to take it off and fix the cat properly.

O2 fooler? Is that different than just replacing it with a straight pipe?

Originally Posted by Ecky

-IMA battery would generally show the most gains in winter, yes. In a climate warm year-round you'd likely see little to no difference. The car still delivers great economy, of course.

I would love to have an Insight with a functioning battery for forever, but unfortunately my driving isn't very conducive for battery longevity, so when it does fail I'll most likely just bypass it.

Originally Posted by Ecky

The silver with 150k sounds most like mine was, and comes from the state with the least salt. The red by virtue of fewest miles would have the least exposure and wear on most parts. The 252k mile car could be a good choice depending on how clean it is, but remember that everything not replaced has that much more wear on it compared to the others - things like the seats, bushings, cables, etc.

A red 2006 w/ 254K miles was just posted today only 20 miles from my house. Carfax is clean, maintenance has been performed regularly, new tires (not sure if RE92s), new motor mounts, new stabilizer bars, new drive belt, new exhaust + other stuff. IMA battery works (unsure how strong), no CEL or other lights, really nice condition except for a few slight scratches on front bumper. 62.5 lmpg. Asking $2300. Will be checking it out tomorrow.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Xist

I had a CEL, cleaned the EGR, and my fuel economy improved:

Increased MPG by 6-13% by cleaning EGR passages!

Yea, that's what people were saying on Insight Central about their Insight's clogged EGRs.

Are you still shopping for another car?