Dreaming...lean burn manual taller transmission Civic sedan...or get an Insight

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

O2 fooler? Is that different than just replacing it with a straight pipe?

Yeah. Straight pipe would not eliminate CEL. There are two O2 sensors, the second one checks the changes in the exhaust after the catalyst. You need to fool this one to get the CEL to go away.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...+sensor+spacer

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

I would love to have an Insight with a functioning battery for forever, but unfortunately my driving isn't very conducive for battery longevity, so when it does fail I'll most likely just bypass it.

Not exactly related, but it was recently discovered on IC that the Civic Hybrid transmission is a direct replacement and fits in the Insight bay. The gear ratios are more linear and would make driving without IMA a lot easier. Food for thought. There are tons of HCH1s in scrapyards from failed batteries, transmissions are abundant and cheap if you went this route one day in the future.

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

A red 2006 w/ 254K miles was just posted today only 20 miles from my house. Carfax is clean, maintenance has been performed regularly, new tires (not sure if RE92s), new motor mounts, new stabilizer bars, new drive belt, new exhaust + other stuff. IMA battery works (unsure how strong), no CEL or other lights, really nice condition except for a few slight scratches on front bumper. 62.5 lmpg. Asking $2300. Will be checking it out tomorrow.

Tell us what you think.

[Xist]

I periodically look at cars, but I want to hold onto mine for a while.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Yeah. Straight pipe would not eliminate CEL. There are two O2 sensors, the second one checks the changes in the exhaust after the catalyst. You need to fool this one to get the CEL to go away.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...+sensor+spacer

Good to know, thanks! Would rather not spend $$$ on new cats whenever they fail.

Originally Posted by Ecky

Not exactly related, but it was recently discovered on IC that the Civic Hybrid transmission is a direct replacement and fits in the Insight bay. The gear ratios are more linear and would make driving without IMA a lot easier. Food for thought. There are tons of HCH1s in scrapyards from failed batteries, transmissions are abundant and cheap if you went this route one day in the future.

What do you mean by more linear? Just the change of the ratios themselves? How does this improve ease of driving? I thought the HCH1 manual transmission was just shorter and less fuel efficient..

Originally Posted by Ecky

Tell us what you think.

Will do!

Originally Posted by Xist

I periodically look at cars, but I want to hold onto mine for a while.

That's what my plan was...until I fell in love with the Insight. I should be able to sell my car for more than I spend on an Insight; if I go with the one I'm looking at tomorrow I'll come out about $1000 ahead after selling my car, so it works out well.

[Xist]

One problem is that if I decided to sell one of my cars, I do not think that anyone would offer what either car is worth to me. I love my Civic and once I find my socket wrenches and 10mm sockets and replace the head gasket, I will be able to get 44+ MPG again. The outside is a bit rough, the driver's fender needs to be replaced, 220,000 miles are a bit high, but I am not even sure that I could sell a car with a bypassed heater core, which made far more sense in the Phoenix area, but not here, where it snows.

Defrosters are useful, too.

My brother walked all over my Accord, so a potential buyer would use the numerous dents as a negotiating point.

Not that I could afford another car right now anyway.

I hope that you find something great.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

What do you mean by more linear? Just the change of the ratios themselves? How does this improve ease of driving? I thought the HCH1 manual transmission was just shorter and less fuel efficient..

The final drive is a little shorter on the HCH so yeah, you'd have a little worse highway economy. I probably wouldn't make that trade. Ideally you'd put the HCH gears 1-5 into the Insight box, or the Insight final drive into the HCH box for the best of both worlds. Might be worth doing if it ever develops a grind and you decide to fix it. I'm still driving mine with a downshift grind and it's fine, the compensation is long since in muscle memory.


While the Insight transmission will spin slower on the highway, due to the spacing of the gears you end up needing to rev higher in the lower gears.

Only graph I have on my phone:



Notice how gears 1-3 are further apart than gears 3-5 and have almost zero overlap, whereas the higher gears have a lot of overlap.

When shifting from 1st to 2nd you need to get up to maybe 2200rpm in first gear so that you're above idle in 2nd. If you're climbing a hill without hybrid assist you might need to rev as high as 4000 in 1st (or 2nd) so you don't begin losing speed in the next gear. Sometimes you really just want a gear that's in between. If those gears were closer together you wouldn't need to rev as high, and the lack of torque without electric assist exacerbates it.

Meanwhile, I usually downshift from 5th to 3rd when passing on the highway because 4th is so close to 5th as to not be enough of a power increase. I still use 4th sometimes but I'd use it more if it were spaced more from 5th.

The HCH gearbox has more even spacing between the gears, so 3rd gear is more like gear 2.5 in the Insight box. I'm being nit-picky and really the Insight box is fine, this is more of an ideal world sort of thing. You'd probably get a little better city fuel economy while also being able to accelerate better in city driving with the HCH gear spacing. With the Insight's final drive you'd sacrifice no highway economy.

Edit: I'm actually getting both in my engine swap. I'm putting in a 6 speed transmission which has linear spacing between all of the gears, while also having what amounts to an entire extra gear beyond the Insight's 5th, for extra efficient cruising. This should partly offset the losses of having a bigger engine.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Hm, so taking the Insight's final drive and putting that into a HCH1 transmission, and then using that in the Insight would maintain the same fuel economy, but provide better gear ratios for acceleration? Sounds interesting, I will have to keep that in mind for when the IMA dies. HCH1 trannies are like $250 at the local junkyard, the IMA bypass will cost $100-$150 if I remember correctly. So that's $400 to permanently eliminate a $2000/10yr expense. Not bad, if I could do it myself. Sounds like a fun project and learning experience.

Will be inspecting the red Insight in an hour!!

Just curious, what RPMs will your K-swap spin in 6th gear at 50, 60, and 70 MPH?

I've always wondered what MPG one of those short-geared Honda Fits would get if someone swapped in, say, an Insight or original CRX HF transmission.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

So just got back from taking a look at the Insight tonight. We did not purchase.

Exterior was in a very rough condition. One very minor accident was reported to Carfax, yet both fender skirts were literally bolted back onto the car, and the left one was bent all out of shape. The front passenger side fender was replaced, as well as the front headlight. Paint was scuffed and chipped everywhere. Note that none of this was shown in the pictures at all. Belly pan below engine was also missing.

On the positive side, the transmission's 3rd-to-2nd downshift grind was apparently already fixed, the IMA battery was new as far as we could tell from testing, the tires were new Bridgestone Potenzas, and it came with a cheap grid charger. Interior was basically flawless.

However the bad along with the condition of the exterior was the engine. The engine made a ticking noise that was directly related to engine RPM. The higher the RPMs, the faster the ticking. My dad thinks it is the lifters, which would either require adjustment or possible expensive engine work. That is the main reason why we have not purchased.

Also, Autostop did not work. When we started the car, it started out of the 12V battery, it did not silent start. We were also unable to get Autostop to work by putting the car in neutral when stopped after the car had warmed up.

We were unable to get any assist or regen in 1st gear, although I'm guessing that's just normal? It functioned properly in all other gears.

What are your thoughts on all of these issues? Possible causes, complication and expense of repairs? There are other people interested in looking at the car, so it'll probably be gone by tomorrow, but would love to know for future reference.

EDIT: I forgot that Autostop does not work when climate control is set to Auto....I didn't look at that when we test drove the car, so it might've been set to Auto..

[Ecky]

Regarding the ticking, that's *probably* normal. The Insight's engine sounds like a sewing machine until it's really warmed up, with very audible valve noise. Once fully warm (long after the temperature gauge is stabilized at 6 bars) it gets to be in if the quieter Honda engines I've heard, but it still has its own unique character. I've never heard of any Insight having any bottom end issues, and the rare top end issues are generally catastrophic, like a broken camshaft.

It's really weird if it started on the 12v battery but still has assist. That would concern me. Typically these cars only use the backup starter when the IMA battery is really toast, completely empty, or when the temperature outside is lower than -4F(ish). Possibly a broken temperature sensor? Never heard of that though.

Auto stop will not work unless the climate control is set to "econ" or is turned off. If set to "Auto" it will disable auto-stop. I've also found that unplugging the climate control module in the back disables auto-stop, so one variable the ECU apparently requires is a "go-ahead" signal of sorts from the climate control, rather than a lack of a "don't auto-stop" signal.

Assist happens much less in 1st, but should still happen if you really mash the pedal and rev it up. It also secretly gives assist when first releasing the clutch but doesn't show this on the dash - it's far easier to stall a car in which assist doesn't work. Sounds like that was probably behaving normally.

I expect a Fit would get very little better city economy from a taller final drive, but might get (just going to make an educated guess) 10-30% better highway economy with a really tall top gear. I really like the Fit's engine, those cars have bad gearing for highway economy and the aerodynamics of a brick, but can still get 45+ on the highway with no special tricks.

K24 transmission with stock tire size will get:

50mph - 1645rpm
60mph - 1975rpm
70mph - 2300rpm

With an upsize to 185/70r14 (definitely the largest I would consider), it would be:
50mph - 1525rpm
60mph - 1880rpm
70mph - 2130rpm

Stock Insight transmission and tires deliver 2390rpm @ 70mph.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

How long should the engine run or idle before the ticking goes away? Looking on Youtube it sounds just like the lifter tick sounds that other cars make. Does your Insight have ticking when the engine isn't warm? If so, would it be too much trouble to record a video of what your car sounds like cold? I would greatly appreciate it if possible.

The seller put it in reverse then started the car, so it started on the 12V. I assumed that was because it wasn't in neutral, am I right in that supposition? I then stopped the car, put it in neutral, and the restarted the car again to see if it would start silently with it being in neutral, and it started like a normal car. You said that it would concern you, can you expound why?

Climate control was probably set to Auto.

We had to rev to nearly redline in 1st gear to get assist to display on the gauge. 2nd gear and up were assisting normally. Is this normal?

IMA battery condition was great and the transmission had no grinds, but it would cost several hundred dollars to buff out and restore most of the paint job. He's asking $2300 but would possibly go for less, especially if the 4-5 people looking at it tomorrow and this weekend don't buy it.

With heavy assist and regen to test the battery's capability, and 90% of the time spent in 1st and 2nd gear, we managed 36.5 mpg for the test drive, which is crazy good considering my Civic would've been like 20 mpg driving it the way we did.

Think it would be worth returning tomorrow to let the car idle longer and test Autostop with climate control set to Econ?

This Insight hunting is almost getting discouraging. I actually looked at HCH1s for a few minutes today. Muy terrible..

[Ecky]

Was planning to respond to this after Thanksgiving weekend, but it looks like you picked one up.