E15 on the way?

[roosterk0031]

I know I've posted this in several places, but reading more of it today, it breaks down emission per mile, so most likely best MPG has the lowest emissions per mile. But it isn't E0, E15 might not hurt all of our MPG's. E20 peaked in some E30 others. Well worth book marking.

http://www.rhapsodyingreen.com/rhaps...evel_study.pdf

One of the place we do a little structual engineering for, a rendering plant, but was bought out by a bio diesel manufactor to they could get the fat. Nasty place, but better than burying the carcusses.

[payne171]

So E85 is naturally cheaper than gasoline? Without subsidies? I have seen the energy cost of producing ethanol; I don't see how that is possible. Even if it is cheaper, it's not really cheaper because it causes fuel economy nosedive. Then, everybody has to pay for it regardless of how much they drive because it causes the cost of grain and grain fed products to go up.

Even assuming you are right about the need for biofuels and that is will eventually be economically feasible, ethanol has no future other than as a high octane fuel. Yes it has great potential when mixed with direct injection, but for normal driving, butanol is the future of biofuel and pursuit of ethanol is wasting resources.

[payne171]

Here you go Frank. Dropping one subsidy means little to nothing in the biofuel hole that the US government is pouring huge money into.

Biofuel Subsidies Are a Waste of Taxpayer Money - On Energy (usnews.com)

"Simply put, because of biofuel's numerous deficiencies, consumers would almost certainly not buy billions of gallons of biofuels in a free, transparent market."

[Frank Lee]

Won't open for me, but we do not have a free, transparent market.

Also (keep in mind I don't know the content of that blog) industry acts for short term interest and profitability. Sometimes to get beneficial things going, they need investment when the payoff isn't necessarily in line with a timeline that would make business sense. Sometimes there is a time and place for government investment.

[serialk11r]

I think as the technologies being developed that allow efficient production of ethanol from waste products like cellulosic plant matter, compost, sewage and whatever, more ethanol in fuel makes sense. Ethanol is a really great fuel for internal combustion engines, it just doesn't make a lot of economic sense the way it's happening right now.

If you're going to get rid of biofuel subsidies by the way, might as well get rid of all these silly farming subsidies while you're at it. If only it were so easy to get rid of government subsidies...

[drmiller100]

I pay 53 cents per gallon for my diesel vehicles, and 2.50 a gallon for my spark plug engines.

How much is a gallon of buttinall???

Comrades, we must continue to send lots of money to Iran for their oil because that helps keep the collective successful.

[payne171]

Not everyone can get 53 cent diesel, but if you can, good for you. Come to think of it, 2.50 for gasoline is pretty impressive too. How? Gasoline is bad enough here that it is now worse than diesel ($3.71 to 3.65).

Butanol, despite your juvenile play on words, can be made from the same materials as ethanol, but it has an energy density a lot closer to gasoline, and an octane rating closer as well (not that 105 octane is a bad thing, but it is a waste with current compression ratios). It's fuel specific energy is actually a little higher than gasoline. Here, granted it is Wikipedia, but it is likely a better source than I am:


Butanol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[KY_Canyon]

How does it make sense to subsidize a product that diverts food producing agriculture to fuel producing?

The result thus far is an inferior product that has had minimal impact on emissions and crude consumption. The direct costs to produce ethanol are greater than any potential savings that might be realized in the near future, and the indirect costs will continue to compound at an increasing rate no matter how low the ethanol production costs become. Far too much time, effort, and money has been wasted on a fuel that has sub-par energy, a shorter shelf life, and can only be used in small percentages in the millions of engines that have already been produced.

When the proposed solution creates more wide-spread problems without eliminating the original issue, then it's time to go back to the drawing board and find another option.

[Frank Lee]

Hmmm... if ag is maxed out, the only solution is fewer people.

[Ladogaboy]

Or we could all just start eating less. And don't get me started on how much food the average American throws away...