E15 on the way?

[Frank Lee]

You are aware that a major, longstanding ethanol subsidy is gone now?

Did you include oil subsidies in your analysis?

[deathtrain]

guys let try to stay away from politics.

[roosterk0031]

I'm glad the E blenders subsizidy is gone, they've had enough time and I'm sure the huge ADM E plant just down the road from work knew it was coming and know's they can still make huge money without it. I don't know enough about the driller subsidy to say go or not go, but all farmers subsidy's should go. All it does it reduce the price of raw material to the ADMs, Cargils & Penfords, that makes no since. Cost of production should be the cost at the store, let us consumers decide what to buy.

0-0-18 is even better than 999.

[Ladogaboy]

I would much rather see prohibitions on pesticides, herbicides, chemical-based fertilizers, and terminator/genetically modified seeds than any farming subsidies whatsoever.

By the way, I thought I remembered seeing numbers relating to how much energy it actually costs to create x energy worth of ethanol... IIRC, it wasn't pretty. I'd much rather see us go the way of biofuels from tree nut type sources... at least the trees get to stick around to "scrub" some of the carbon they are responsible for.

[roosterk0031]

Nothing holds carbon for ever. Corn takes it out of the air, puts part of it into the corn, rest stays in the plant is broken down into soil or used for cellouse ethanol to be burned and returned to the air. Tree's have a slower cycle, but unless you land fill the wood it decomposes and returns to the cycle.

I really don't think the speed of the cycle matters, yes tree's hold it for 20-40 years but it really just delays the release, it doesn't elimnate it. A crop you don't have to replant every year and takes little or no fertizlers is the best(grass). But corn stores really well for years without loosing any value, we already have corn bins all over to store it, it's energy density is way higher than grass, and we are already really good at growing it.

If carbon is your concern, you have to quit using fossil fuels, and go Ethanol. Electric cars are a joke, untill all electricty come from renewable or nuclear. For a long time into the future liquid fuel is what we will use. Ethanol is the best thing I can see.

Farmer are getting to be better business men all the time, they can't afford to over fertize, pesticide etc.... I just wish they'd quit bulldozing every creek & fenceline, pheasant hunting suck lately.

[Ladogaboy]

I'm curious. How, exactly, is ethanol better than other biofuels? It is less energy dense and costs just as much, if not more energy to produce. Also, the engines that run ethanol are, for the most part, less efficient than biodiesels.

[Frank Lee]

For starters, there are several engines in every driveway that can burn the stuff as it is. My cylinder count is ludicrous yet I don't have anything to burn biodiesel in and that's the case for 98% of us.

[Ladogaboy]

This is where I make a bad pun: But starters are electric...

But on a serious note, I'd say that our main concern/priority should be with fueling equipment than keeps our infrastructure running, and in that case, I think the pendulum would swing much further in the opposite direction... in the favor of biofuels.

Most of the ranches and farms I've worked on use mostly diesel. Quite a few generators, especially those that are larger than the personal/household duty, are diesel. Most (if not almost all???) semis run on diesel, and current locomotives run primarily on diesel (outside of some small yard units, which still are mostly diesel).

For everyone else, driving is a privilege and luxury... a nice to have. For everyone else, there's ethanol.

[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

Nothing holds carbon for ever. Corn takes it out of the air, puts part of it into the corn, rest stays in the plant is broken down into soil or used for cellouse ethanol to be burned and returned to the air. Tree's have a slower cycle, but unless you land fill the wood it decomposes and returns to the cycle.

I really don't think the speed of the cycle matters, yes tree's hold it for 20-40 years but it really just delays the release, it doesn't elimnate it. A crop you don't have to replant every year and takes little or no fertizlers is the best(grass). But corn stores really well for years without loosing any value, we already have corn bins all over to store it, it's energy density is way higher than grass, and we are already really good at growing it.

If carbon is your concern, you have to quit using fossil fuels, and go Ethanol. Electric cars are a joke, untill all electricty come from renewable or nuclear. For a long time into the future liquid fuel is what we will use. Ethanol is the best thing I can see.

Farmer are getting to be better business men all the time, they can't afford to over fertize, pesticide etc.... I just wish they'd quit bulldozing every creek & fenceline, pheasant hunting suck lately.

this man is a genius, as he agrees with me.

when ALL done, ethanol can be made much cheaper then the rest of the bio fuels. IMO, the easiest, best way to figure out the efficiency of something is to look at the fair market value of it. Ethanol can be delivered to middle america for 3 dollars a gallon, and put into your tank, without subsidies.

It is happening today.

The subsidies were setup to give government money to the oil companies. The producers never saw any of it, only the "blenders" which by definition were those who owned the dyno fuel.

I've made and run bio diesel. it is pretty expensive to make, as you have to squeeze oil out of vegetables, which is not a very cost effective process.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by drmiller100

I've made and run bio diesel. it is pretty expensive to make, as you have to squeeze oil out of vegetables, which is not a very cost effective process.

...not to mention that your car also perpetually smells like a proverbial "...McDonalds' burger & fries."