Elio Motors, The Next Big Thing?!!...

[Michael Moore]

I'm not a car guy but besides Morgan what about Sunbeam Alpine Tiger, DeTomaso Pantera, Lotus and Shelby Cobras as iconic cars with bought-in engines? In motorcycles there's Brough, Cotton, any number of manufacturers of bikes using Villiers, Sachs, Rotax or F. Morini engines, Bimota (whose in-house 500cc 2T engine helped bankrupt them), etc.

Building a chassis is a much easier and less capital-intensive job than designing, building and certifying a modern auto engine and transmission. Chassis parts are +/- .01" fab jobs, not +/- .0005" precision machining.

If Elio is struggling to get enough money to build the chassis, then adding millions of dollars to their financial outlay to design and build their own engine (which would probably largely have to be a "me too" copy of existing technology) seems pretty dumb.

Of course, if they have no real intention of ever getting into production and are instead just milking the investors for what they can, then pie in the sky "we're going to build an engine and transmission too!" plans might be a good thing. "Please, we only need another $30 million dollars and we can build our maybe as good as someone else's engine too . . ."

Perhaps they should make their own tires and buy a steel and aluminum plant, and open an electronics branch to design and build the ECU, etc etc etc.

There are good reasons why even major firms like BMW (which is quite capable of building its own engines) go to reputable firms like Rotax and buy either an already existing engines (like the older Rotax 2T and 4T singles) or commission a new design.

cheers,
Michael

[Arragonis]

A worked example is Facel - the Facilia.

Facel made Chrysler V8 powered sports cars (Facel Vega) and wanted to make a smaller model - the Facilia - with a smaller engine. They decided to engage an engine maker to design their own unit - it was a disaster.

They ended up replacing it with a Volvo 4cyl unit but by then the company was doomed.

How would that have been different if they had used the Volvo unit from day 1 ?

[ME_Andy]

Are any of those brands you mentioned cheap, though? Morgans, BMWs, Lotuses, and Shelby Cobras are not, for sure.They can afford to pay a premium when they buy an engine from a middle man. Elio can't. Plus, they got IAV to design the engine for them. IAV is 50% owned by Volkswagen and has done design work for practically everybody.

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[Arragonis]

Precisely my point, buying a ready made solution is cheaper both for Elio and their customers.

- No development costs / risks
- No need to spend on passing emissions / federalising

- Cheap to fix, parts shops in every town will carry spares
- Cheap to service - common parts shared with hundreds of thousands of similar vehicles.
- Flexibility to change suppliers easily if/when manufacturers change their ranges and stop production.

You still have the advantages of the low weight and aero too. These things will be cheap (or at least that is the aim) and they will also continue to decline in value. Even if there is an initial under-supply / over-demand period that will ease once production ramps up, if it does.

Think about it - a 7 year old Elio breaks - probably worth under $2k - an owner (an Ecomodder ?) is going to want a cheap and easy fix like they do for Metros or Civics, thats why they are so popular on here.

[jkv357]

Originally Posted by ME_Andy

Are any of those brands you mentioned cheap, though? Morgans, BMWs, Lotuses, and Shelby Cobras are not, for sure.They can afford to pay a premium when they buy an engine from a middle man. Elio can't. Plus, they got IAV to design the engine for them. IAV is 50% owned by Volkswagen and has done design work for practically everybody.

No they aren't - and that is a problem for Elio.

Buying a decent engine package wouldn't be cheap, but neither is developing one. If you purchased an engine you could be producing completed vehicles much quicker. The R&D and manufacturing time and cost just for the engine are significant, plus you need to produce additional spare parts and inventory them.

Even large established companies like Hyundai had engine problems with their first attempts. It has taken them quite a while to overcome their first failures and restore consumer confidence.

I wish Elio luck (it's a neat concept and design) but they are taking quite a big bite with developing their own powerplant - many before them have choked on it.

[Arragonis]

Surprisingly I wish them well too - given my previous comments. If they had a full complement of wheels, side-by-side seating and the steering wheel on the right side I would ponder one. As it is I would probably buy one of these



The engines in them are unreliable (high oil consumption, rapid wear) but those are fixed with some replacement parts and specialists are abundant and cheap-ish.

[Xist]

Originally Posted by jkv357

I wish Elio luck (it's a neat concept and design) but they are taking quite a big bite with developing their own powerplant - many before them have choked on it.

It seems like they are taking many other chances.

[tyronasauras]

Well, I went to the credit union and gave them the flyer that I got at the Woodward Dream Cruise. Gave them the website info and asked if they would finance one before I committed to put a deposit down. Two days later they called and said they would and would be glad to support the eco effort.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by tyronasauras

Well, I went to the credit union and gave them the flyer that I got at the Woodward Dream Cruise. Gave them the website info and asked if they would finance one before I committed to put a deposit down. Two days later they called and said they would and would be glad to support the eco effort.

So what, the liability is still with you.

[Fat Charlie]

But knowing that you don't need $7k in your pocket the day it (possibly) comes out makes it a lot easier to put down a deposit. The local credit union isn't going to treat a hypothetical Elio like a 4-wheeler or other toy, and that's good news.