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Old 02-09-2010, 12:28 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wonderboy View Post
When I hear super awesome, I usually think about 5-10% MORE mpg. That 11% cheaper figure probably fluctuates quite a bit depending on where you are too. I thought Christ's analogy was spot on; I don't understand how you wouldn't get it.
I measure "super awesome" in more than one dimension dude

If I handed you a car that gets 10 miles per gallon you'd be all sore right? But then if I told you it was 10 miles per gallon of your used household greywater you'd say WOOHOO!! ... because gallons ain't gallons. A gallon of molten gold is more precious than a gallon of whale dung. I don't understand why so many people on here seem not to comprehend that.

If I can pay 11% less, get 5-10% less miles per gallon, have more available horsepower, produce a less harmful emission, support domestic agriculture, support a renewable fuel, and not have any of the problems that people on here complain about, what's not to like?

And people who say that producing ethanol consumes fuel probably think that foreign oil ships itself halfway around the planet without using fuel or something..

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Old 02-09-2010, 12:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovel View Post
I measure "super awesome" in more than one dimension dude

If I handed you a car that gets 10 miles per gallon you'd be all sore right? But then if I told you it was 10 miles per gallon of your used household greywater you'd say WOOHOO!! ... because gallons ain't gallons. A gallon of molten gold is more precious than a gallon of whale dung. I don't understand why so many people on here seem not to comprehend that.

If I can pay 11% less, get 5-10% less miles per gallon, have more available horsepower, produce a less harmful emission, support domestic agriculture, support a renewable fuel, and not have any of the problems that people on here complain about, what's not to like?

And people who say that producing ethanol consumes fuel probably think that foreign oil ships itself halfway around the planet without using fuel or something..
No, people who use your argument are the same type of people who think an electric motor can turn a generator to charge it's own battery.

Of course it takes fuel to ship fuel. It takes far less fuel to ship a tanker full of fuel halfway around the world than it does to produce and ship and mix and distribute a similar amount of ethanol.

The best analogy for the production process is basically that you're pumping quarters into a change machine that only gives back dimes, and it only takes quarters one at a time.

Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.

How many quarters do you have?
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bgd73 View Post

fermented wood. Great.
right because somehow that is less desirable than 100 million year old rotted algae?

unless you subscribe to abiogenesis theory, which despite the kerogen marker problem has not been outright proven false yet.

every day my girlfriend eats a pill made partially of horse pee and every time you eat a fig product you're very likely eating wasp wings, eggs, and carcasses... well, everything is made out of something isn't it?
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Let's not have this thread turn into a debate about ethanol pros/cons, please.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:07 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
No, people who use your argument are the same type of people who think an electric motor can turn a generator to charge it's own battery.

Of course it takes fuel to ship fuel. It takes far less fuel to ship a tanker full of fuel halfway around the world than it does to produce and ship and mix and distribute a similar amount of ethanol.

The best analogy for the production process is basically that you're pumping quarters into a change machine that only gives back dimes, and it only takes quarters one at a time.

Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.
Put in $0.25, get back $0.20.

How many quarters do you have?
Yeah people who hate ethanol always say these words, all the time.

But then there are actual businesses that put actual money on the table every day making and selling ethanol. They keep having enough quarters.

BP.... a petrol company, has invested over $100m into Verenium, a cellulosic ethanol company. Compared to a lot of naysayers typing words into internets, $100 million dollars is pretty significant. And since BP has the word "Petroleum" in their name, the fact that they are investing actual money into a fuel that competes with petroleum makes me go

There are several companies, such as Genahol, investigating schemes to produce ethanol from municipal waste, reducing the net ingress of trash into landfills - a secondary benefit which cannot be ignored.

Sorry, with due respect given to individuals, I continue to absolutely disagree with the ethanol bashing at almost every level. While I do not in any way stand to benefit financially from ethanol or its production and don't think it is the ultimate solution to our energy needs, I see it as a bridge away from fossil fuels - something we sorely need and something we will never get as long as we continue resisting it.

And it DOES run awesome in my lightly modified, cheap, normal cars.

Cheers
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Last edited by shovel; 02-09-2010 at 03:07 PM.. Reason: reduced potential unfriendliness to help ensure productive discourse
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:09 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Let's not have this thread turn into a debate about ethanol pros/cons, please.
then.. um, what is it?

it's not "GASOLINE GRADES CONTAIN 1% NAPHTHA" or "wheat thins contain riboflavin" ?
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovel View Post
then.. um, what is it?

it's not "GASOLINE GRADES CONTAIN 1% NAPHTHA" or "wheat thins contain riboflavin" ?
Well the thread started out with "In Canada the premium gasoline has no ethanol". Which seemed kind of strange so the OP wanted to know if that was the norm anywhere else.

Seems pretty straight forward.
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:47 PM   #28 (permalink)
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When did this shift in ethanol content took place in Canada? Looking and my Hyundai's gas log got my wondering...
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:34 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Martin: it may not in fact be Canada-wide. Ontario has its own 5% average ethanol content rule.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:19 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Heard back from another gasoline retailer - Ultramar.

In response to me asking about finding a non-ethanol fuel for certain marine engine applications, they say:

Quote:
In Ontario provincial law requires us to sell a certain percentage of ethanol in our gasoline.

Ultramar has limited this percentage to regular gasoline only.

You can use supreme gasoline without any concerns. We do not, however, recommend that you use the mid-grade (Plus) gasoline as some stations are equipped with a system that mixes the regular and supreme to create the Plus grade of gasoline, rather than having a separate tank for the mid-grade. Therefore you could receive some ethanol in certain stations if you purchase the Plus gasoline.

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