Ethanol in gasoline

[solarguy]

The problem with cellulose----->ethanol is that mother nature (or God, depending on your world view) spent a lot of time and care making cellulose exquisitely difficult to take apart chemically. Hardly anything eats wood, with a few exceptions like termites. A few generations of organic chemists have tried to make the concept of alcohol from cellulose a net energy yield equation, without much success to date.

It's like fusion, they keep promising that in ten years, they'll be really close.

Yeah, or not.

The other problem is that topsoil depends on getting that cellulose back to maintain fertility and tilth. Take away all the cellulose, and you eventually wind up with poor to non-existent yields.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue research on cellulose, there's waste organic matter out there that we can and should use, It's just that it's never going to be the silver bullet that lets us all drive 12 mpg Explorers without environmental consequences.

Finest regards,

troy

[Funny]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

Then how is that guy producing E100 and burning it for energy?

Just as a clarification to everyone, there is no such thing as 100% ethanol, it is unattainable in practical application because it is azeotropic. Reagent grade ethanol, the highest percent purity money can buy, is 99.8% percent. This is the highest one can obtain without putting ridiculous amounts of energy into it to drive off the water. Typical ethanol that one creates in a still, commonly known as "moonshine", is 95.6% ethanol, 4.4% water.

Wikipedia quote: "A well known example of a positive azeotrope is 95.6% ethanol and 4.4% water (by weight). Ethanol boils at 78.4°C, water boils at 100°C, but the azeotrope boils at 78.1°C, which is lower than either of its constituents. Indeed 78.1°C is the minimum temperature at which any ethanol/water solution can boil. It is true that a positive azeotrope boils at a lower temperature than any other ratio of its constituents. Positive azeotropes are also called minimum boiling mixtures."

Once ethanol is exposed to air, it immediately begins to remove moisture from it, thus becoming less and less concentrated the more exposure it receives. This is why cars have stumbling problems with E10 and E85, there is water in the gas tank. In most small engine power equipment, you will find a statement in the owners manual that tells you to not use gasoline with ethanol in it if possible because it creates moisture in the carburetor and problems such as condensation, hesitation, and frustration (This F'ing Thing Won't Start!!! *Beats mower repeatedly with a hammer*.

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

One of the classes in my school (BSAA) is making E100, and I think they might Denature it for the use as a fuel (and so you can't really drink it...) But I'm pretty sure E85 isn't Pure ethanol, as its 15 percent gasoline, and E100 is used as fuel today, just not good in engines not built for it.

Again, fuel grade Ethanol is not 100%. Close, but no cigar.

Methanol, on the other hand, which is used in Heet, and other forms of "dry gas", is a great way to remove water from your gas tank. It doesn't form an azeotrope with water, and can be 100% pure. It is also completely soluble in both ethanol and water and, as such "pulls" the water out of the gas tank, through the fuel pump, and sends it through the combustion chamber.

I would be much more inclined to buy 5% Methylated Gasoline than E10. Even though the methanol reduces the overall BTU per gallon, you would effectively never have water in your gas tank. I hope this clarifies everything for everyone.

EDIT:
In response to the above post about wood being used to create ethanol...

"Methanol is often called wood alcohol because it was once produced chiefly as a byproduct of the destructive distillation of wood. It is now produced synthetically by a multi-step process: natural gas or coal gas and steam are reformed in a furnace to produce hydrogen and carbon monoxide; then, hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases react under pressure in the presence of a catalyst. Methanol is also produced from the gasification of a range of renewable biomass materials, such as wood and black liquor from pulp and paper mills."

[Intrigued]

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Would you then be able to measure the % ethanol that really was in the gas, if you mixed it with a known amount of water?

At the dealership I worked at back in the dark ages, we HAD a kit we used to measure to see if there was too much ethanol in the fuel, when a car was running funny. Only the "Driveability" guys used it, but they would add a certain amount of (the old type antifreeze, I think), and would shake it up and then let it settle for a few minutes. You then had the prettiest line separating the gas from the ethanol...and in color! Look at where the line was, and you knew the percentage of ethanol in the fuel...

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Funny

J


Once ethanol is exposed to air, it immediately begins to remove moisture from it, thus becoming less and less concentrated the more exposure it receives. This is why cars have stumbling problems with E10 and E85, there is water in the gas tank.

"

Don't know about the E10 but stumbling with E85 on non FFV is common under load because the injectors are not putting out enough fuel not that there is water in the fuel.

[Christ]

I would tend to agree with Lazarus here, as the fuel density of E85 is less than that of normal gasoline.

The thing about ethanol not being pure, I've argued that point for ages with everyone in the known universe... it's nice to see that someone actually knows the same. In fact, I had a physical science teacher in high school that "used to drink moonshine - the only 100% grain alcohol available in his time."

I told him over and over again that he should think about what he's saying before he says it.. not only because he was bragging about dangerous alcohol use to students, but because he was making an ass of himself by stating incorrect information. (All that, plus, he was only 32.. hardly moon-shine age, born in the Sixties.)

Everytime he said his alcohol was 200-proof, I would come back with a more valid estimate of something like 180-190 proof, depending on the exposure time to open air.

On topic - Any engine can be tuned to run E85, and the stumbling is a byproduct of a few things, not just a lack of fuel.

1. - the engine will lean out with too much of an E85 mixture, due to the lower density of ethanol

2 - Gas engines aren't optimally tuned physically for use with E85. E85 has a much higher octane than even high grade gasoline (street premium), and can withstand higher compression without pre-ignition... this comes at a cost to low-compression engines, in the form of less energy released as a result of lower combustion temp.

This raises a question though - If high compression engines are more efficient, and have less expenditure of harmful compounds (right?), Would E85 being used in a normal low-compression engine create a similar situation? (Higher than normal emissions, compared to running it the way it should be run.)

I've contended with people who use higher octane fuels than they need to for god knows how long as well, as you're not getting any more power without tuning for higher octane fuel. Same applies for E85.. if you're not tuned for the mixture, you're not using it to it's fullest extent. Although you're probably still saving money, since it's so much cheaper to use/buy.

[instarx]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I have gotten better mileage with ethanol in 3 different cars. A 2.0L, 3.0L, and a 1.6L. None were approved or modified for it. The mileage peaked at E20 blend. I know that's not the norm but maybe it has to do with driving style. Until I got to a blend of E50 did the cost per mile head the wrong way.

I read an academic study last summer (and I am far too lazy to try and find it again) that the amount of ethanol in fuel has a non-linear effect on the mileage any vehicle gets. The researchers found that most ethanol mixtures lowered mileage, but for every car tested there was some mixture that got better mileage than pure gasoline. The optimum ratio varied a lot between vehicle model - for some it was around E60 and for others around e15 (so there is no easy to use rule of thumb). The largest improvement in mileage was seen in vehicles designed for flex fuel, and the smallest improvement from unmodified gas engines. I don't remember how much mileage increased, but it was pretty impressive for the flex-fuel vehicle.

I didn't do anything fancy to find it, I probably googled "safe ethanol percent", or maybe "ethanol octane". Gas was $4.50/gallon at the time and I was looking to lower my fuel costs for my non-flex car.

[Nevyn]

Sounds rather similar to the folks that swear by the theory that acetone in proper quantity provides MASSIVE fuel economy + performance boost. supposedly, it lowers the surface tension of the gasoline, thus making it easier to burn as it's less likely to "droplet."

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Sounds rather similar to the folks that swear by the theory that acetone in proper quantity provides MASSIVE fuel economy + performance boost. supposedly, it lowers the surface tension of the gasoline, thus making it easier to burn as it's less likely to "droplet."

There are similar claims with Xylene and Toluene... both of which have octane levels of race fuel. (117 and 114, respectively).

I've personally added 1 gallon of Xylol to my 87 octane fuel mixture, so by simple averaging:

87 octane x 11 gallons = 957
117 octane x 1 gallon = 117

957 +117 = 1074

1074/12 gallons = 89.5 average octane rating.

The effect was like using mid-grade gas in my car. I got no better or worse fuel mileage. I did notice that it cleaned the intake runners in the head of gook though, when I changed the intake manifold.

I never had a chance to try 2 gallons, which would have given me

87 x 10 = 870
117 x 2 = 234

1104/12 = 92 octane.

I contend without experiment that it would have done nothing, however, for fuel economy, as higher octane fuel does nothing unless you tune for it.

Test Vehicle was a 1989 Honda Civic DX, 1.5 liter, "new" engine (20-30,000 miles) average driving method (3k shift, 70-75 MPH highway@3200-3800 RPM 5th gear), average spring/summer weather, average trip length = 28 miles or so (closest store is 10, work was 35 one way, "everything" was 20 or so.)

Before anyone attempts to flame the use of explosive solvents in your fuel - Gasoline contains Xylol and Toluene already. Adding more won't screw up your engine, and is only dangerous if not handled correctly.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Sounds rather similar to the folks that swear by the theory that acetone in proper quantity provides MASSIVE fuel economy + performance boost. supposedly, it lowers the surface tension of the gasoline, thus making it easier to burn as it's less likely to "droplet."

Could be right but I know it did not hurt the FE using the dreaded ethanol until I got to a mixture of E40. If it did not increase my FE it sure increased the money I saved paying at the pump.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Christ

There are similar claims with Xylene and Toluene... both of which have octane levels of race fuel. (117 and 114, respectively).

I've personally added 1 gallon of Xylol to my 87 octane fuel mixture, so by simple averaging:

87 octane x 11 gallons = 957
117 octane x 1 gallon = 117

957 +117 = 1074

1074/12 gallons = 89.5 average octane rating.

The effect was like using mid-grade gas in my car. I got no better or worse fuel mileage. I did notice that it cleaned the intake runners in the head of gook though, when I changed the intake manifold.

I never had a chance to try 2 gallons, which would have given me

87 x 10 = 870
117 x 2 = 234

1104/12 = 92 octane.

I contend without experiment that it would have done nothing, however, for fuel economy, as higher octane fuel does nothing unless you tune for it.

Test Vehicle was a 1989 Honda Civic DX, 1.5 liter, "new" engine (20-30,000 miles) average driving method (3k shift, 70-75 MPH highway@3200-3800 RPM 5th gear), average spring/summer weather, average trip length = 28 miles or so (closest store is 10, work was 35 one way, "everything" was 20 or so.)

Before anyone attempts to flame the use of explosive solvents in your fuel - Gasoline contains Xylol and Toluene already. Adding more won't screw up your engine, and is only dangerous if not handled correctly.

I've got a home brew to that works well for me. Funny things about cars none are the same with varing degrees of defects that make the FE game interesting.