Ethanol in gasoline

[i_am_socket]

Finally found when it started: "Corn ethanol production has long been a favorite of farm state legislators in Congress, who have promoted the fuel as an alternative to the evils of foreign oil. Congress approved the first ethanol subsidies in 1978, just a few years after the Arab oil embargo of 1973."

So ethanol can be a good thing, just not with the current engines available in this country or while being produced the way it currently is. Cellulosic ethanol wouldn't use feedstock as a source and even using current methods, sugar beets and sweet potatoes would deliver 2-3 times the amount of ethanol per acre than corn.

Methanol is another choice but more work would need to be done to kill that exhaust.

And all of this is assuming we can convert the current available fleet to actually make use of the fuel.

I'd file ethanol in gasoline as yet another example of a good idea with a piss-poor implementation.

[Lazarus]

We have set the infrastructure up for gasoline. It will take alot to change that. The key is to deversify. Methanol, Ethanol, Battery technology, CNG etc. There really not just one choice we need to have lots of choices to make an effect.

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

^
engine is made from different materials that resist corrosion and the electronics do the timing stuff. but you loose a lot of mpg's from using E85.

Not as much as you should though

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

^
engine is made from different materials that resist corrosion and the electronics do the timing stuff. but you loose a lot of mpg's from using E85. they're built to run on gas, but can run on E 85 or anything between. its pretty much a waste.

I really think that the problem is not enough Ethanol. Instead of E10 they should have Mixtures of E15-E20. Your mileage may very. That's where I have seen the best FE performance.

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I really think that they problem is not enough Ethanol. Instead of E10 they should have Mixtures of E15-E20. Your mileage may very. That's where I have seen the best FE performance.

What kind of vehicle?

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Formula413

What kind of vehicle?

1.6 L Daewoo
2.0 L Mazda 626
3.0 L Maxima

For the price differential here I could run a mixture of E50 before it was no longer cost effective. And at E50 the hit was 10%

[Formula413]

Same result with all three rides? That is surprising, because the more ethanol the lower the energy density, at least on paper. I wonder why the E20 is giving better FE than E10?

[solarguy]

To really have a meaningful discussion about the merits of ethanol as motor fuel, you have to talk about where the ethanol came from. In north america, that mostly means corn.

Do a google search for +corn +ethanol +eroei

You will get a huge discussion and many viewpoints. But a few facts will filter out. EROEI stands for:

Energy
Returned
On
Energy
Invested

It's a way to calculate if you get more energy out than you invested to make it. For a long time, the eroei for corn-based ethanol was 1:1 at best, meaning it took one unit of fossil energy to produce one unit of ethanol energy. This was true probably up until the late 80's. Now, best case scenario, it's 1.3:1. That means you get 30% more energy out than you invested in fossil fuel.

The problem is, you have to count every scrap of energy value of the byproducts like cattle feed to make it look even as good as 1.2 or 1.3 to one. Other independent analysts say it's still pretty close to 1:1 if you count the soil erosion and non-sustainable corn growing practices. So, realistically, you're not not saving a lick of CO2 by using ethanol. If you're home distilling ethanol, you're almost certainly at 0.8:1 or worse, meaning you get less energy out than you put in. The one possible up-side to home brew is that you might be able to use wood or other biomass to provide the process heat, so at least you're not using up more petroleum energy than you're getting out in alcohol.

Just for comparison, the eroei for biodiesel from virgin soybean oil is 2.5:1 or 3:1 depending on who you talk to. The eroei for biodiesel from waste veggie oil (fryer oil) can run as high as 6:1

Ethanol from sugar cane has a much better eroei, for a couple of reasons. One, sugar cane is a nitrogen fixer. It sucks nitrogen right out of the air so it doesn't need any (or not much) petroleum derived fertilizer. Two, sugar cane plants are almost universally designed to use waste biomass as part of the process heat, further improving the eroei. That's why Brazil has been so successful in their ethanol program.

Ethanol has been so "successful" in this country because:

1. Corn farmers have pretty good and pretty powerful lobbiests.

2. Congress critters are not that smart, and not that motivated to do what's right for the country.

It has not had ANY significant impact on our use of foreign oil.

HTH,

troy

[Formula413]

Obviously corn ethanol has it's downsides. Cellulosic ethanol seems much more promising.

Cellulosic ethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Formula413

Same result with all three rides? That is surprising, because the more ethanol the lower the energy density, at least on paper. I wonder why the E20 is giving better FE than E10?

Because measuring Enthalpy is easy.... Measuring Qout is also fairly easy.... Analyzing the arrow (combustion, in this case) in Qin -> Qout is significantly difficult.