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Old 05-16-2014, 07:57 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Here are the co2 emissions of representative vehicles that people drive. The article used a contrived "mpg co2 equivalent" term so the average person could compare. Instead i used grams per mile of co2 emitted which is a more accurate comparison. Wells to wheels co2 allows us to see the real co2 emissions of an electric vehicle charging from a clean and dirty grid. The point is that if you want near 0 zero emissions you have to do your part to buy electricity from clean energy sources!

MPG....Model...Tail pipe co2.....Wells to wheels co2 emmisions
28mpg..Camry 317 grams a mile....(395 gpm wells to wheels)
46mpg..Prius 193 grams a mile......(241 gpm wells to wheels)
50mpg..Prius 178 grams a mile......(222 gpm wells to wheels)
70mpg..Insight ~127 grams a mile (158 gpm wells to wheels) SULEV CVT (@70mpg)
99mpge Nissan Leaf 0 grams a mile(119 grams a mile) [New England mixed grid]
99mpge Nissan Leaf 0 grams a mile(201 grams a mile) [Austin Texas mixed grid]
99mpge Nissan Leaf 0 grams a mile(293 grams a mile) [Kansas grid 72.8% coal] (Worst)
99mpge Nissan Leaf 0 grams a mile(1.9 grams a mile) Charged exclusively from Hydropower! (Best)

Depending on your hypermiling activities, you may be emitting less co2 than an Electric car in some instances. On the other hand, you could be emitting far more co2! Co2 emissions are primarily proportionate to the mpg you get, gasoline or diesel. Exhaust treatment is a secondary factor. The 5800mpg co2 equivalent for Hydropower, is 1.9 grams a mile, not 0 emissions but close enough!

This is a portrait of my NewEngland mixed grid compared to the national average. It shows that coal power is a percentage of the grid. It's never 0% coal, or 100% coal! I'm lucky that i receive more in renewable than coal. It also shows that shutting down coal plants will not crash the grid and end the world! 10.8% coal can be easily replaced with renewables!

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Old 05-16-2014, 10:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
Hydro is solar, and the most efficient solar by far.

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Oil and coal are solar, too, just more inefficient processes to get at that solar energy.

Since summer 2012 the majority of our electricity comes from the wind farm north of town, an arrangement negotiated by the city. This doesn't show up on the regional map tool. I'm guessing an electric car here would be on the very low end of carbon emissions, but I can't afford a Tesla and a Leaf doesn't have enough range for my commute.
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:47 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I edited the co2 emisions of my Insight to a correct 127gpm (158gpm wells to wheels). Co2 emissions are directly proportional to what mpg you get. For a gasoline car you can use this formula to get a pretty close approximation of the co2 emissions of your hypermiled car: 50 / (your tank mpg) x 178= your tail pipe co2 emissions in Grams per mile (gpm). Then multiply by 1.246 for your "Wells to wheels" co2 emissions.

If you have a plug in car your emissions will be the ratio of your emissions on electricity and gas. You can look up your emissions at Fuel Economy .The website will only do a predefined ratio of gas to electric use though. For example, a Chevy Volt get 98mpge on electricity for 119gpm "wtw"(on my New england grid 01201)/ and 37mpg on gas for 240gpm tail pipe (303gpm wells to wheels gas). The EPA assumes 66% EV miles, 44% gas miles for a combined 252gpm co2 wtw.

This dispels the plugin bias of not counting the electricity you use. A Chevy Volt may get an inflated 1,000mpg fossil fuel consumption, but assuming you get the epa estimates and drive like the average person, your emissions will never be cleaner than 119 grams per mile on pure electricity, and like wise will only be as bad as 303 grams per miles. Infinite mpg does not get you infinitely small emissions. Electricity from the grid is part fossil fuel, so even if you chose to remain ignorant of it in your "mpg" calculations, Your greenhouse gas emissions do not lie and will always reflect it!
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:02 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Gas cars can be as clean as EVs on the current grid. The Edison2 Xprize car running e85 produced the least emissions of any of the hyper efficient electric cars. On the other hand the Edison2 vlc-Electric would spew an astronomically low 34-48gpm depending on the EPA drive cycle. So electric cars really are the only option for near zero emissions in the future.

I think the members here at the very least should be commended not only for saving gasoline from being burned, but also for emitting an unusually low amount of co2 per mile. As little as half the amount of co2 for those in the 200% above the EPA mpg club!
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:15 AM   #25 (permalink)
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The big question is how little co2 and greenhouse gas emissions is acceptable to stop global warming?

Are clean burning gas, and EV's on the current grid enough? Co2 and pollution for that matter is still being spewed in the atmosphere. What is the break even rate for the Earth to absorb co2 as fast as we emit it? As it stands we're at 400ppm co2 and counting.
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:08 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog 44 View Post
The big question is how little co2 and greenhouse gas emissions is acceptable to stop global warming?

Are clean burning gas, and EV's on the current grid enough? Co2 and pollution for that matter is still being spewed in the atmosphere. What is the break even rate for the Earth to absorb co2 as fast as we emit it? As it stands we're at 400ppm co2 and counting.
Go back to living the true hunter gather lifestyle.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:02 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Go back to living the true hunter gather lifestyle.
There is no where near enough acreage to support billions of hunter gatherers.
Unless you are including cannibalism as a valid hunter gatherer option.

No petrol powered vehicle can match a 100% electric vehicle recharged from solar for co2 emissions. Maybe we need Solar Roadways to improve the co2 rating of the grid?

Another benefit of a solar roadway or at least a roadway with embedded lights and some smarts to control them is that we could switch off the millions of street lights that burn all night long. The street lights light up streets when there is nobody there to benefit from the light. Imagine a roadway system where it automatically lit up the road in front of you making driving easier and safer. Then once you passed by the lights went out. Probably saving megawatts if not gigawatt's of electricity that could be used to recharge those 100% electric cars sitting in their garages overnight.
So no additional electricity required from the power stations yet the petrol stations can be switched off and the oil stops burning (at least the oil used for automotive fuel).

I imagine we have all seen the pictures of the night side of the Earth taken from space.
So many street lights that the whole country is visible from space. All done just in case there is a car travelling on that road.

Once the street lights are switched off the city sky glow will disappear and our kids will be able to see the stars again. (no not the Hollywood ones, the ones in the sky).
And i am not talking about a handful of stars, I mean seeing the night sky as can only currently be seen by travelling out into the middle of nowhere and looking up. Stars beyond counting, great waves of light cast across the night sky. Most people don't even know the stars are all different colours, they have never seen them when they are bright enough to trigger the colour receptors in their eyes. They just see them as white lights because against the city sky glow that is all you can see.

That's enough crazy ramblings from me for one night. Time for some sleep. Oh and by the way, i don't have to turn on a light to find my way around the house thanks to several street lights that burn all night for the two cars that travel down our street each night. Isn't that considerate.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Solar road way?
You are kidding right.

First of all they can't build a regular road that doesn't start to break down after just a few years. Then you are going to integrate solar cells more fragile than a potato chip into the road surface and drive 80,000 pound trucks on them. That sounds like a terrible idea.
Have you ever dont any road work? Its miserable work, I have gone out to do repairs on their machinery and you wouldn't believe all the deep gouges, divits and nicks the road way accumulate from tires falling off, trailer tires blowing out and the driver just keeps going the tire shreads apart and then they ride it on the steel rim to the next exit, items falling off trailers, junk getting ran over hung up under then dragged under vehicles. Then when a tractor trailer tire blows do you have any idea how much force the tread belt swings around with? Hitting the ground with every rotation.
Thats just what we need, a road that suffers millions of dollars in damage and stays closed for who knows how long after a tire blow out or vehicle fire.
Its starting to sound like a bad idea, but wait there's more.
In addition to all that, any where up north that sees deep frost has compression ridges, these compression ridges shatter concrete and asphalt with ease. Also any where up north that sees daily freeze thaw cycles has roads that only last a few years before they start to look like a mosaic. Dont for get most of the roads in the US see a snow plow and road salt most winters.
Aside from being an epic waste of money on an unimaginable scale that wont work in most places I see no problem with it.



Just putting regular roof top solar panels or "the solar roofing shingle" on houses seems like a much better idea. At least then 40 ton trucks are not being driven on them constantly.
I would rather see individual home and property owners controling power generation rather than the government.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:49 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I just posted an article on ecorenovator the other day. The main cost of a solar install is not the panels, its the supporting structure and electronics.

Alternative energy costs are dropping - EcoRenovator

I do agree with Oil Pan. Roads are already really expensive, and solar is not cheap. I'd rather not combine the two. I'd MUCH rather see them on building roofs where they're out of the way and just chugging away daily to make energy.
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:03 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I am yet to be convinced that the 'solar roadway' is viable or that it makes more sense than just putting long arrays of PV panels along side the highway. Renewable energy can supply much more energy than we need.

On the food front, we are currently using way more energy to grow our food than we need to, and we waste far too many calories factory farming meat animals, when they could be raised on small farms where they fit into and support the full cycle of life. There is no waste in farming when it is done right. Locally grown food is where we have to get to. Factory farming is unsustainable.

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