A gift for HHO Skeptics!

[UFO]

HHO is simply not "good science". It astounds me that so many without any background in physics at all think they know more than folks trained in the field. It's true, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know; the contrary is true as well.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by wickydude

I agree.
And a "report" without data by an independent mr. Claude J Travis, of whom I could not find much info other than some claims about equally unproven technologies (additives etc.)
Sorry, but it is just not scientific enough to spend 18k on a black box.

If it were really this good, all major manufacturers would deliver their vehicles with a unit like this.

. . . conservative by nature. Major manufacturers would need a level of performance and reliability that current HHO tinkerers cannot achieve. TheCell is attempting to prove it's product's performance and reliability. Increasing fuel costs will provide the market pressure to look for savings. The low hanging fruit of aerodynamics, rolling resistance and weight, get picked over first. Much like what members of this forum usually do. Other than the lean burn Honda crowd, no one attempts engine mods due to the difficulties and the much smaller returns. Manufacturers eventually will start using lesser known technologies because market pressure will warrant it. If and when a technology hits the market is often not an indication of its basis in science. Fuel injection is a well known example. Development and application lagged even with it's known advantages over carburetors until fuel economy and emission pressures changed all that. Now it is an indispensable tool.

[t vago]

Originally Posted by UFO

HHO is simply not "good science". It astounds me that so many without any background in physics at all think they know more than folks trained in the field. It's true, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know; the contrary is true as well.

That's what happens when you're told, all of your young life, that it's most important that you feel good about yourself, and that results don't matter so much as that you have a meaningful experience of it.

[t vago]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Fuel injection is a well known example. Development and application lagged even with it's known advantages over carburetors until fuel economy and emission pressures changed all that. Now it is an indispensable tool.

Sorry, no. Development and application lagged until the necessary electronics were invented to produce a cheap and reliable EFI solution. Ever try working on vintage mechanical FI?

[Xist]

Originally Posted by t vago

That's what happens when you're told, all of your young life, that it's most important that you feel good about yourself, and that results don't matter so much as that you have a meaningful experience of it.

Hey! You showed up! Have a trophy!

[t vago]

Originally Posted by Xist

Hey! You showed up! Have a trophy!

Hey, when everyone's special... no-one is.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by UFO

HHO is simply not "good science". It astounds me that so many without any background in physics at all think they know more than folks trained in the field. It's true, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know; the contrary is true as well.

It provides the basis for other disciplines. As you move down the halls and rooms of specialties, incongruous results appear to the less informed.

This is how we come to two opposing sides of HHO. A few very uninformed people take perfectly good research results and expand it beyond reason. Others with some education and intelligence bash them with the broad application of the Laws of Thermodynamics.

The truth gets buried in the flying mud.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by t vago

Sorry, no. Development and application lagged until the necessary electronics were invented to produce a cheap and reliable EFI solution. Ever try working on vintage mechanical FI?

I have a vintage Mercedes with the Bosch CIS ( continuous injection system ). My wife has a later electronic CIS in her Mercedes. Both are a pain to tune in comparison with modern EFI. And both perform much better than carbureted vehicles of the time in both efficiency and emissions. And thus my point - high end cars had the profit overhead to use fuel injection in some form. It was available. However, the market would not bear it in lower end automobiles.

And, modern EFI was brought about by several factors of course. I made the point that increased fuel costs and environmental concerns drove EFI and that is not entirely true. But it certainly accelerated it's implementation as it coincided with electronic advancements. Some third world countries with government controlled fuel prices and no environmental concerns still see many carburetor equipped vehicles sold and operated there.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

It provides the basis for other disciplines. As you move down the halls and rooms of specialties, incongruous results appear to the less informed.

This is how we come to two opposing sides of HHO. A few very uninformed people take perfectly good research results and expand it beyond reason. Others with some education and intelligence bash them with the broad application of the Laws of Thermodynamics.

The truth gets buried in the flying mud.

Two opposing sides? You give legitimacy to lies when you elevate them to the same level as the truth. This garbage has been around for 100 years now with absolutely no legitimate results, and you still seem to think it just hasn't been properly implemented.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Xist

Not that I am suggesting it (even with carbon sequestration), but I am surprised that I have not heard any claims about steam reforming, except that I doubt that too many people know what it is.

It takes energy , one way or the other.

You see more about steam reforming , pyrolysis and such when looking into larger scale commercial hydrogen producers ... there it is about the $ balance ... not the energy balance.

In the HHO advocate side they aren't about trying to produce market priced hydrogen ... they are trying to beat the non-hydrogen energy balance.

So the intent behind the production method is different.