A gift for HHO Skeptics!

[t vago]

Originally Posted by UFO

Two opposing sides? You give legitimacy to lies when you elevate them to the same level as the truth. This garbage has been around for 100 years now with absolutely no legitimate results, and you still seem to think it just hasn't been properly implemented.

It's failed all the times it had been tried, in the past, but it will work this time around, because we have "the right people" working on it now. nudge-nudge, wink-wink

I say, let RustyLugNut put his money where his mouth is. If he thinks that HHO can somehow be made to work, then let him try it. After all, we have to keep our minds opened up so much, that any fool idea can take hold.

[P-hack]

Rusty, There are studies to indicate that adding hydrogen to a diesel (up to %4) can improve efficiency up to %15 above and beyond the energy in the additional hydrogen, but there are so many variables (and the NOx production jumps up as well). But I don't know how advanced the engines are to begin with, not without gobs of research. If it affect the pressure profile, then so does the newer TDI,s with several infinitesimally small pulses per stroke. If it is a precombustion engine, well those already have lots of room for improvement.

My objection to the test, Rusty, was that they used separate machines and drivers and only one test using the sae protocol. Do you not understand the limitations of that? That does not sound "controlled" to me. They were 1500lbs different?!?

Why did they not specify the differential ratio of the test truck?

The dyno test does not include bsfc for some reason?!? (that would be a terrific starting point for a scientific approach to efficiency)

The "emissions" test only tests opacity, ignoring the spike in NOx

the video "proof" looks like it is more like 11.5 on average, not 11.1, from 13.3 , I calculate a %14 fuel savings from that, for some reason they said 19.8, Sloppiness costs credibility, deal with it, don't give me a @#%@ing lecture about it.

And they do not discuss how they are powering the hho, which does not seem to be completely installed. As well they are idling at test time, was that the extent of the testing of all the other engines?

If your engine makes less particulates, then it would seem to be combusting better, the diesel manufacturers seem to be on top of that, not sure HHO is the solution at this point anyway, nor do I trust anyone selling such a system, with good reason.

[niky]

Or you could skip the hydrolysis part and go straight to water injection. Which has been proven in the real world to give economy benefits, allowing you to lean out, produce more power, reduce particulates, etcetera. And on gasoline engines, it allows you to run lower octane, as well... producing extra savings in the form of cheaper gas.

Without the electrolytic middleman. And no hocus pocus.

The OEMs have experimented with water injection, and some (serious) research has been done into using it for fuel economy. But water injection has been dropped, partly because you can't trust people to remember to refill the extra tanks (or trust them to use pure distilled water), because the need for a hefty tank for longer range adds weight and complexity and because direct injection achieves much of the same benefits already.

I still don't get why people keep trying to go the extra energy-loss step when the raw material being used, dihydrogen monoxide ( ), is already a very efficient octane booster...

[P-hack]

good point. Actually in another thread I discovered some bleeding edge trucks are using combustion heat to drive a steam turbine generator, so that is another approach to using extra heat + water.

[Frank Lee]

VW had EFI back in the '60s on econo cars.

[some_other_dave]

That Bosch D-jetronic was just barely EFI. Trust me, I've worked with it and on it.

It was also based on the Bendix "Electrojector" setup, which had even more primitive electronics running it. The electronics were so unreliable that they sold very very few and just about none were still installed on the cars after a year or two.

Fuel injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-soD

[JasonFlash]

Hello All! I'm new to Ecomodder and figured I'd share some knowledge on this, see below. I've also hear of people combining HHO with water injection or water vapor pulled in the vacuum.

Hydrogen On Demand, or Hydrogen Assist, or Hydrogen-Hybrid. It's called many different things, but the basic principle is that it's an add-on to your existing gasoline engine and it makes very small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen. The engines intake sucks in they mixed gas and the "theory" is that it enhances the engine's efficiency.

You'll find all over the internet that this technology doesn't work as it goes against the laws of conservation of energy, so on and so forth. On paper it doesn't make sense and it's a crazy concept to grasp, but some people have tried it and succeeded while most have failed.

Here's the reason most people have failed: Due to the emissions laws and regulations be coming strict, more and more emissions sensors are added to vehicles every year. The vehicles (most) computers are designed to burn at 14:1 fuel ratio (14 parts air to 1 part fuel) and they correct and adjust as needed.

When you add a hydrogen cell to a vehicle the vehicle's O2 sensors sense the change and dump in more fuel to compensate to get you right back to 14:1 as it's designed.

Most people don't realize this, but the gasoline engine is only about 15-30% efficient. So you put your fuel in, the engine burns it (well sort of) un-burned fuel hangs out in the catalytic converter until it's burned, some vehicles recirculate the fuel partially, and then it escapes your tail pipe with very little pollutants. Most of the energy escapes in the form of heat and does not get used. So the theory goes, if you are able to increase the efficiency just a tiny bit it will add up to money saved.

Good news/Bad news: There are ways to get around or trick your vehicles computer; unfortunately it's not simple as downloading an app. You can get a chip for your vehicle to help compensate for this such as a Volo HHO Edition, however your results may vary at best. On the more advanced side (in some states illegal) you start messing with the emissions sensors to lean out your fuel mixture, typically with a correct install, correct amp draw and the right gas production for your vehicle you'll drop approximately 20% of your exhaust temperature. Cooler exhaust temps allow you to lean our your fuel so instead of being stuck at 14:1 you can add more air to your fuel mix and use less fuel!

If this sounds like a lot of work, then go buy a Prius or other "Green" Earth saving vehicle. (If you can justify the cost, I haven’t yet aside from the “cool factor”) If you are willing to spend time, frustration and tears to try and make this work then it may be for you.

The Internet is full of overpriced-waste your money kits, I haven’t found a site that sells a kit that’s really worth investing in yet. I pieced together my setup from different sources on the internet and the hardware store and didn't really save a whole lot “piecemealing”. It was an extreme hassle to get everything work and agonizing, but it’s fun to experiment and watch it working. There’s nothing free with this, you either spend your time figuring it out or pay someone to do it and you still may not be happy with the savings or results and keep in mind that some vehicles work better with this than others.

I’d suggest for anyone starting out to keep your setup simple, so maybe start with a wet cell design and do your homework! There are many people that sell instructions on how get an HHO cell working on a vehicle, it may be worth investing in one of these books, or e-books if you don’t feel like spending hours dissecting the internet for bits and pieces like me.

[cowmeat]

You forgot to add the crystals!

[P-hack]

Jason, nobody has really done a proper job of it. There have only been allegations of success done in private, and you need somewhat sophisticated equipment to even have a hope of sorting it out (i.e. a peak pressure transducing spark plug and etc) plus complete control of injection and ignition.

Then you are still saddled with another tank or two to top off and keep unfrozen for what looks like a marginal gain compared to other efficiency mods (i.e. adjusting the nut behind the wheel) which marginalize the theoretical gains of HHO further.

TL;DR; Unproven, inconvenient, expensive, better solutions exist.

[RiceCake]

When you add a hydrogen cell to a vehicle the vehicle's O2 sensors sense the change and dump in more fuel to compensate to get you right back to 14:1 as it's designed.

Hydrogen burns with oxygen to form water vapour. In other words, the cars ECU will lean out the intake mixture because some of the gasoline required will be displaced with hydrogen to form the proper stoichiometric ratio. There is no oxygen "hanging out" in the exhaust when you inject hydrogen into the motor. In other words your own bogus science already is proving your philosophy wrong.

but it’s fun to experiment and watch it working.

Show me it working then with some independent scientist or engineer standing by, preferably an SAE International engineer, like I am. Cant do that? Funny.

There’s nothing free with this

Oh here we go.

you either spend your time figuring it out or pay someone to do it and you still may not be happy with the savings or results and keep in mind that some vehicles work better with this than others.

So pay for something that could probably not really work (but you should believe in it).

do your homework!

Read my earlier post. You can't possibly -ever- generate enough hydrogen on board from water on a car to make any difference. Period. Its just not ever going to happen. Even if you dedicate your electrical system to making hydrogen, you get about enough to run a cigarette lighter. Wow.

There are many people that sell instructions on how get an HHO cell working on a vehicle

Wow, really? I wondered why your entire post read nothing like an ad to glean search engine hits from salting websites, I totally thought you were paying attention and not just copying and pasting something.

it may be worth investing in one of these books, or e-books if you don’t feel like spending hours dissecting the internet for bits and pieces like me.

Cha ching. We've found The Ark gentlemen.