GM: Won't let "green car stuff" get out of hand

[The Atomic Ass]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I wouldn't buy one and I have reservations as to whether a whole lotta folks would.

They'll buy vehicles that have more power and better economy than the competitors, assuming they don't have anything against GM specifically.

[hamsterpower]

I've always wondered, if the Big 3 include their sales to Government agencies in their sales numbers? I would think, I don't know for sure, that MOST local, state and federal agencies use only American vehicles.

The saddest thing about that idea is an awful lot of "American" cars are built in the other americas (Canada, Mexico.). And a lot of so called Japaneses cars ( Honda, Toyota, Nissan) are built in the US. People who, by policy, buy "American" are not paying who they think.

[evolutionmovement]

Amazing how long this thread is when we all mostly agree about the industry. I'm also amazed people read my long post! I would've included some of the other points people brought up, but tried to keep it brief(ish). That's why I write novels and not short stories.

Not to keep beating the point (VW—God I hate them so much!), but I think the European cars in their home markets are probably far more reliable than when they arrive in the US. That or the Europeans have a much higher tolerance for blown engines and such. I agree the American cars have traditionally been poorly made, but perceived quality and reliability are two different things. My friend's second nightmare Audi A4 (he's finally learned and is buying something else) looks nice, the door shuts with a solid thump, and the interior is a great place to sit ... on the side of the road awaiting a tow truck to take you to a dealer that will say the 1.8T is toast with 55k miles due to a poorly designer oil pickup, and no, it won't be covered as it's out of warranty. Easily three-quarters of the cars on the side of the road I see are VWs built since the mid-nineties (including 2, yes 2 that burned up in the breakdown lane—New Beetle and recent Jetta). I painted a VW badge on the fire extinguisher I carry because of that. On the other hand, I've known plenty of clapped-out trashed American cars that look like refugees from a Hollywood chase movie that still, somehow, get their owners need to go. Sure, you don't want to drive it or even look at it except to laugh, but it works. Hell, some of them could still embarrass better cars in a straight line ... until the door opens up on you and you spill out onto the highway because the bench seat bends towards the pavement and the seat belts are unusable decoration (an old friend's Nova, though I never actually fully fell out).

I am partly playing Devil's advocate here—I'm a guy who bought the Subaru Legacy with the Japan VIN over a US one. My sister had a US one and there really was a difference in perceived quality and solidity.

[ldjessee00]

Hello,

I am driving a 1999 1/2 Jetta and we bought a new Jetta TDI wagon to replace the Subaru that got totalled in a car accident in the winter (the Subaru was worth far more than I thought after 6 years and 100k miles).

People who complained about not buying American with my Subaru, I told them I bought a car made in my state, how about them? I never had any maintenance issues and would have sworn i would have destroyed the clutch.

The driving factors when we bought our current car? Had to be able to transport the wife and me, the two kids (well, one is going to college this year) and our stuff to the east coast to visit family. It also had to get the best mileage doing it.

We selected the TDI over the Prius (and Honda Civics).

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Super22LL

If someone was to GIVE you a FREE loaded-out brand spanking new 0 miles Impala or a FREE loaded out brand spanking new 0 miles Camry, which would you choose?

Hell, it wouldn't even have to be a NEW Toyota :-)

[instarx]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

What does GM's market share have to do with it? Nowadays we have Honda, Toyota, everybody with full size offerings, even 4x4s.

The full sized cars you speak of are not the full sized cars of the 70's and 80's. I remember thinking "what a tiny car" the first time I ever sat in a Volvo, and today Volvos are considered full sized cars. So no, Honda and Toyota don't make "full-sized offereings". Let's ignore trucks which are a cargo carrying vehicles (even then, neither Honda nor Toyota makes a pickup as big my Dad's old full-sized Chevy Silverado.)

Detroit was dragged kicking and screaming into making smaller cars (and they do make smaller cars today compared to when the Japanese started competing). They were also dragged kicking and screaming into improving the cars they made of any size. The American car you could buy in 1972 was basically the exact same car you could buy in 1952 except with a different body. Drum brakes, same transmissions, etc. The Japanese and Europeans forced Detroit to compete.

The same is true today. Although what Lutz said was "There is no profit in small cars", what he really meant was "There is huge profit in big cars". If everyone made only small cars there would be plenty of profit in them. Detroit just wanted to hang on to their old designs for as long as possible and avoid having to upgrade electronics, suspensions (you couldn't buy an independent suspension in an American car in 1972, but my Datsun Z had it), fuel systems, brakes, engines, etc, because those things cost Detroit MONEY to add.

Detroit has been 5-10 years behind the curve on car technology (including reliability) since they first had to compete in the 60's. THAT's why Japanese and European cars have captured so such market share in the US. The only real innovation by US carmakers in the past 50 years has been the cup holder.

[instarx]

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

I think the European cars in their home markets are probably far more reliable than when they arrive in the US. ... My friend's second nightmare Audi A4 (he's finally learned and is buying something else) looks nice, ... on the side of the road awaiting a tow truck to take you to a dealer that will say the 1.8T is toast with 55k miles due to a poorly designer oil pickup, a...

This is just anecdotal information. I can give just as many design problems with US manufacturers. Exploding Pinto's (correcting it would have cost Ford $6 per car so they decided the loss of life was worth it), Ford buying the cheapest tires possible for their vans which killed occupants when they disintegrated, poor oil distribution in GM 6.5L diesels, abysmal GM auto diesels, Vega's, Chrysler anythings, etc, etc, etc.

It's just my opinion, but if I had to have a reliable car I'd buy this order: 1)Japanese, 2)Korean, 3)European, 4)American.

And here is probably the best example of all. Volvo used to have a reputation for reliability, but after Ford bought them they became known for being unreliable.

[tjts1]

Volvo had quality issues long before ford took over.

[elhigh]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

The American consumer really is a gullible stupid slob isn't she?

On average, yes.

Agent K said it: one person is smart. You can talk to him, reason with him. "People" are dumb, panicky animals, and you know it.

That said, I'm looking hard at buying a Jeep. Maybe a Scout, if I can find one in good shape.

[robchalmers]

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

Not to keep beating the point (VW—God I hate them so much!), but I think the European cars in their home markets are probably far more reliable than when they arrive in the US. That or the Europeans have a much higher tolerance for blown engines and such.

ooooooh trust me, that aint likely,

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

I agree the American cars have traditionally been poorly made, but perceived quality and reliability are two different things. My friend's second nightmare Audi A4 (he's finally learned and is buying something else) looks nice, the door shuts with a solid thump, and the interior is a great place to sit ... on the side of the road awaiting a tow truck to take you to a dealer that will say the 1.8T is toast with 55k miles due to a poorly designer oil pickup, and no, it won't be covered as it's out of warranty.

Granted but thats a warranty length issue, and Market specific (i think ), did it have enough oil in it?


I hope you guys don't end up with an industry like ours was that when competition arrived (germans/japanese) in the 60/70s we put our fingers in our ears and kept making crap- even when the Germans and Japanese took over we still screwed it up LEARN FROM US change, and other peoples ideas can be good!