HHO: Good, bad, or ugly?

[agent00kevin]

Im new here but HHo was the first thread I found.

I got 19-21mpg from a 1994 caravan 3.3L without HHO. I got 22-24mpg with the HHO. I drove it for a few years before I installed my own HHO, then drove it for about 15 months with the HHO. MPG increased using HHO. Plain and simple.

What is funny is that no matter where I go, HHO naysayers typically get angry and start insulting HHO users. This trend exists all over the internet, and one has to wonder why? HHO users rarely seem to get irritated at the naysayers, but why the other way around? Ill tell you why: it makes the naysayer look smart in credible (in their own mind)

And no, I will not take my Caravan with 228,000 miles to a Dyno and pay to have it tested. Thats ludicrous, and I would never spend my own cash to prove someone wrong on the internet. And thats probably why no one ever takes their HHO vehicle to a dyno - its not worth the 'I told you so'.

It worked for me. The gains werent spectacular and probably barely worth the cost and effort involved, but nonetheless, it worked.

[oil pan 4]

I only have 2 questions.

When nasa bottle fed a piston engine hydrogen they saw an efficiency improvement of about 3%. This was to be expected when you introduce any flamable gas that is super heated at room tempature into the intake air stream.
How does a 3% boost from a some what relyable source translate into 10% to 50% for the average person?

The OEMs have spent billions of dollars researching hybrid and battery tech. The added hybrid tech increases MSRP by as much as $3000 even on so called "mild hybrids" and in return too many have delivered questionable economics.
You would think they would kill for a $100 part that could give them a 10% boost.

You dont think these generators would have gone unnoticed do you?

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

MPG increased using HHO. Plain and simple.

only if all other variables remained the same ... ie you made no change to your drive route ... no change to drive methods ... no change to average speed ... etc ...

There are people who get 20% more MPG than other people driving the same car ... just from different driving methods ... or from different driving conditions.

Even if you saw the MPG change you report ... without proper testing ... it is just an uninformed leap of faith to assume it was HHO.

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

What is funny is that no matter where I go, HHO naysayers typically get angry and start insulting HHO users. This trend exists all over the internet, and one has to wonder why?

from my experience it is because 90+% of the time ... the HHO advocate does not provide proof to back up their claims ... and in my experience 90+% of the time the HHO advocate will make claims that violate well known and established science ... Science that does have proper 3rd party proof to back it up.

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

HHO users rarely seem to get irritated at the naysayers, but why the other way around?

my experience has been the opposite ... with the HHO advocates making wild claims without proof ... and getting defensive and irritated when others point out their mistakes and errors.

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

And no, I will not take my Caravan with 228,000 miles to a Dyno and pay to have it tested. Thats ludicrous, and I would never spend my own cash to prove someone wrong on the internet. And thats probably why no one ever takes their HHO vehicle to a dyno - its not worth the 'I told you so'.

Two things to note.

#1> If it worked ... and you could prove it with a proper 3rd party dyno test ... you could market it for far more money than the cost of the dyno.

#2> If you have no interest in proof of the claims you make ... no sweat off my back ... believe anything you like ... but it should be obvious to you that others will not believe you either without you providing proof of your claims.

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

It worked for me. The gains werent spectacular and probably barely worth the cost and effort involved, but nonetheless, it worked.

Correction ... you saw a MPG gain ... but you did not indicate here you had the proper testing or controls nor sensors to know what the cause of that gain was from... to assume it was the HHO ... without the proper controls and tests ... is just an unfounded assumption.

I can change the MPG I get from point A to point B just by changing the way I drive ... I can change the MPG driving the same but with different tire pressure ... I can change the MPG driving the same with the same tire pressure if the air temperature is different ... etc ... in order to rule out all those other factors requires controlled test conditions... not gut feeling assumptions... thus why people ask for the dyno testing.

[D.O.G.]

I've experimented with "HHO" in the past and got improved fuel economy figures … but,

My early improvements were (I now believe) due to the cleaning properties of the "HHO" and water vapour, removing carbon deposits and freeing the piston rings.
I saw a drop from about 10 l/100k to about 9 l/100k after a few weeks, but the gain remained when the "HHO" was turned off.

To cut a long story short, I could eventually average around 7.4 l/100k.
That's a 35% improvement … but only 15% above EPA.
Some of that improvement came from mechanical servicing, replacing the CV's gave a noticeable boost, running increased ignition advance helped, most of the rest probably came from driving technique changes ( before I started on this site).

As much as I wanted "HHO" to work, it bothered me not knowing for sure what was giving me those figures. To that end, I started using "hypermiling" techniques to get the best figures I could without "HHO" use, to serve as a base figure for further testing.

The bottom line was, "HHO" couldn't improve my averaged fuel economy figures.


I'm not saying feeding an ICE with "HHO" can't give improvements. There were particular circumstances where I could plainly feel the difference between "HHO" on or off, but those circumstances were only a tiny percentage of my normal commute.



Please note, I've only tested on carburettor engines that have no sensors that need to be adjusted (and no longer have those vehicles). Adjusting sensors gives a whole new set of variables to be accounted for when deciding where any improvements have come from.

[fastegg]

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

Im new here but HHo was the first thread I found.

I got 19-21mpg from a 1994 caravan 3.3L without HHO. I got 22-24mpg with the HHO. I drove it for a few years before I installed my own HHO, then drove it for about 15 months with the HHO. MPG increased using HHO. Plain and simple.

What is funny is that no matter where I go, HHO naysayers typically get angry and start insulting HHO users. This trend exists all over the internet, and one has to wonder why? HHO users rarely seem to get irritated at the naysayers, but why the other way around? Ill tell you why: it makes the naysayer look smart and credible (in their own mind)

And no, I will not take my Caravan with 228,000 miles to a Dyno and pay to have it tested. Thats ludicrous, and I would never spend my own cash to prove someone wrong on the internet. And thats probably why no one ever takes their HHO vehicle to a dyno - its not worth the 'I told you so'.

It worked for me. The gains werent spectacular and probably barely worth the cost and effort involved, but nonetheless, it worked.

Hi mr agent00kevin.
Firstly, i'm not a HHO 'nahsayer' as you put it. And my beef is not with you personally or any other HHO user. My beef is with the people selling HHO and claiming all these benifits with not one bit of credible proof, no one bit.
Secondly, I would love more than anything than to see anyone selling HHO to show before and after dyno charts.I would love to SEE it work. And as I say Factory Pro as well as most other company's that sell performance products, all of them have dyno print out's showing before and after installing their product. Everyone does this, everyone EXCEPT people in the HHO 'industry' Yeah, agent00kevin might be getting better FE and more power.... if this is so, how come no one in the 'industry' want to back this up. So you think because I want dyno proof and in 30 years have yet to see it off anyone, you think I do this because it makes me 'look smart and credible (in their own mind)' Good god....
How many other buisnesses & industries around the world could survive and god forbid, prosper with no credible proof their product works other than hearsay, because that is all your evidence is, hearsay. Until someone on this earth in the HHO industry anywhere takes a car to a dyno shop to show power and FE gains and more to the point show power drop and FE increase when HHO is switched off, then for evidence based people like me that's all it will be, hearsay. I mean (in Australia) it would cost about $150 at the dyno to prove their point $150!!!!!!! And you think I want this proof because 'it makes the naysayer look smart in credible (in their own mind)' ?????
So just out of interest Mr agent00kevin, why do you supose no one in the HHO industry (you know, people that sell this stuff based on unsubstantiated claims) have ever shown DYNO PROOF ? .... Why is that ?
kind regards 'The suposed Naysayer'

ps: I guess i'll have to just have to continue asking for proof as it makes the naysayer look smart and credible (in my own mind)

[niky]

Originally Posted by D.O.G.

My early improvements were (I now believe) due to the cleaning properties of the "HHO" and water vapour, removing carbon deposits and freeing the piston rings.

This has been my question all along... looking at other testimonials given in the first post... including one wherein another said basically the same thing as you... that the gains stayed with the device turned off... and seeing their economy go from crappy to around average, I have been asking if the gains are simply due to the properties of water injection itself... which cleans out the engine and makes it run more efficiently.

The ignition advance helps a whole lot, too.

[Ken Fry]

Originally Posted by agent00kevin

What is funny is that no matter where I go, HHO naysayers typically get angry and start insulting HHO users. This trend exists all over the internet, and one has to wonder why? HHO users rarely seem to get irritated at the naysayers, but why the other way around?

I have found just the opposite, with some of the HHO promoters becoming so belligerent that they have been thrown off engineering and science sites. When Popular Mechanics did their test showing that even an unusually well-constructed HHO unit had no effect at all, the HHO promoters tended to be immediately insulting to the author, whereas the scientific types tended to be patient. Both sides had plenty of bickering, of course.

John Heywood, one of the best-known and respected automotive combustion scientists in the world, was hired by the Federal Trade Commission to test a Honda Accord equipped with an HHO unit from Dutchman Enterprises. Using an EPA-certified dyno, he showed that the unit had no beneficial effect at all (let alone the huge 50% gains advertised). His credentials are impressive, and it is hard to imagine that he participated in the FTC test to make himself "look smart in [sic] credible."

The FTC settlement against Lee ended up at $2.7M. Unfortunately, the FTC does not have the funds to go after all the small operators, some of whom sold $1,000,000 in units (in just a few months) prior to the dampening effect of the FTC suit.

Early on in the Lee suit, the FTC used a Nobel-Prize-winning physicist to (correctly) explain to the judge that these units cannot produce an amount of HHO mix to come even remotely close to the extra fuel consumed to produce the HHO. Earlier studies (by NASA, for example) showed that injected volumes of hydrogen had to be many times larger (and come from an "energetically free" source, such as a tank) to have a measurably positive effect -- and even then the economics are not workable, unless hydrogen becomes very cheap and gasoline very expensive.

There is no plausible scientific reason for these devices to work as claimed by the promoters. However, studies have shown that placebos work as well as anti-depressant drugs. In a similar effect, many drivers claim improvements from fuel line magnets, "turbinators," HHO units, etc., that have been shown in sensitive, well-controlled dyno tests to have no positive effect whatsoever. So, people with a serious interest in fuel efficiency (people who have studied combustion and have engineered combustion systems) will not believe someone claiming any increase in fuel efficiency from using an HHO unit. How could they? Engineers do not believe in magic. Many engineers schooled in combustion engineering associate the terms HHO and fraud, because of a history of fraud prosecutions going back before the days of Stanley Meyer.

You can probably understand that many engineers, scientists, and enthusiasts may not be infinitely patient with folks promoting HHO, fuel line magnets, and "turbinators".

I wonder if you are confusing "get angry and start insulting HHO users" with directly expressed opinions. Engineers are often not good politicians. Do you have a link to an example of an interaction in which an HHO promoter was insulted (without provocation) by a detractor?

[ConnClark]

I think I have an idea that will surpass the HHO hype and it actually will contribute an improvement in mileage and reduce greenhouse gas effects.

Its called the TacoBell Methane Booster. You sit on a seat cushion that acts as an air filter. You then run a hose from the seat cushion to a place behind your airfilter. This will cause any flatulence to be directed to the intake of the engine where it will be burned as fuel and transformed into water and CO2 (note water and CO2 are less of a greenhouse gas threat than methane).

Once I get kits into production it will flood the market and end the hho scam.

Just imagine the gag gift potential. Its a polite way of saying to someone "You fart too much".

[t vago]

Originally Posted by ConnClark

I think I have an idea that will surpass the HHO hype and it actually will contribute an improvement in mileage and reduce greenhouse gas effects.

Its called the TacoBell Methane Booster.

Okay... You lost me there.

I mean, you're obviously a plant for Taco Bell. Part of a giant conspiracy to get people to buy Taco Bell and immediately thereafter do a mass power flush of the sewer system!

[UFO]

Excellent idea, but how do you get people to eat Taco Bell? It's pretty crappy stuff...