How to build a muscle car for better fuel economy?

[Ecky]

If the motors were wound differently, they could operate at higher RPM, but would lose torque down low. You could also increase the system voltage to get it to work at higher speeds.

Most alternators are horribly inefficient. Better would be to use the hub motors to generate electricity and delete the alternator. Any motor can also be a generator.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by Ecky

If the motors were wound differently, they could operate at higher RPM, but would lose torque down low. You could also increase the system voltage to get it to work at higher speeds.

Most alternators are horribly inefficient. Better would be to use the hub motors to generate electricity and delete the alternator. Any motor can also be a generator.

Well, I need to work with what is possible and easy to modify versus trying to pay a custom shop to build me something entirely brand new!

This kit would open the doors into a new possibility with my car. Actually I stand corrected, 200 ft pounds of torque per wheel gives it a much more impressive 400 ft pounds of torque! Pairing this with the gasoline motor would make it really fun to drive, if the system could operate in tandem with the gasoline motor AND receive it's recharge during operation. The only way I see this working is by using a high-output alternator if that would be enough! I don't know if brake recharging would be possible when you have this system on your car.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

That hub-motor hybrid conversion setup could be quite interesting, but it would make more sense with an automatic transmission.

But anyway, if you could try something conceptually similar to Honda's IMA or that ZF hybrid module (clutch assembly and electric motor in a single pack) which is being fitted to some hybrid trucks, that could be the best way to turn your ride into hybrid.

[freebeard]

This, and an extrude hone of the entire intake manifold.

Extrude hone, now we're talkin'.

The video and article came out in 2012 so I am not sure how this product has come along in five/six years.

Did you notice he mentioned a lug-nut mounted version. That was their earlier version that mounted outboard to the wheel. It had a lever arm the was screwed to the rocker panel with self taping screws. This version is 'wrapped around the brakes', but I'm not seeing it. And they never show the wheel installed so you see the increased track.

Well, I need to work with what is possible and easy to modify versus trying to pay a custom shop to build me something entirely brand new!

This kit would open the doors into a new possibility with my car.

This kit is essentially paying to have a [University] custom shop build you something entirely new. The good news is that you are accepting the idea of a hybrid. This would be classified as a through-the-road hybrid (with independent drive systems), rather than series or parallel. But your contemplating custom parts, not OEM. $$$

It is a polyphase DC VFD motor, but the those are subject to back-EMF that limits high rpm performance. Toyota HSD uses permanent magnets buried in the rotor to overcome this.

[oil pan 4]

DR44G series alternators.
I convert them to external rectification and external excitation and make welders out of them.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by freebeard

This version is 'wrapped around the brakes', but I'm not seeing it. And they never show the wheel installed so you see the increased track.


This kit is essentially paying to have a [University] custom shop build you something entirely new. The good news is that you are accepting the idea of a hybrid. This would be classified as a through-the-road hybrid (with independent drive systems), rather than series or parallel. But your contemplating custom parts, not OEM. $$$

It is a polyphase DC VFD motor, but the those are subject to back-EMF that limits high rpm performance. Toyota HSD uses permanent magnets buried in the rotor to overcome this.

I am open to the idea of a hybrid so long as it doesn't require insane amounts of customization to the point where I am no longer using my original motor to power the car! My only gripe with this kit is that it shuts off when you are driving faster than 40/45 mph. I don't understand why they couldn't really improve upon it by having the system operate the entire time and at all speeds and RPM ranges, this would multiply both city and highway mileage!

I understand that this system will need recharging but we can't somehow tap into the gasoline motor's alternator, using a high output version? Since we already have a rather large lithium battery to power this system, why not use it to start the gasoline motor and help power the accessories?

This kit, if I could have it installed, would either turn my rear-wheel drive car into a four-wheel drive car, or it would augment my rear-wheel drive thus reducing the throttle required to propel the car under gasoline engine power, however, I am still hell-bent on using Iso-Butanol! The combination will make my car not only more fuel efficient but even more emissions friendly, and we are talking about a labeled gas gussler!

I would be more than willing to pay the University to have this kit installed on my car if it were done right and if it could be done.

I will try to get in contact with them about my request to have this system operating the entire time with my V8 motor and whether or not we could have a high output alternator installed on my V8 to recharge this system, and even to use the battery pack to start and power the car accessories. This would really be a game changer!

[Ecky]

Most hybrids' motors sit behind the transmission's gearing, so they can operate over the full range of speeds the car operates at. No hybrid that I know of has an alternator, because that's one of the benefits of a hybrid system - the motor is also a highly efficient generator, capable of producing electricity with much less loss than an alternator. All motors are also generators. Alternators are lousy generators. This is why a belt-driven hybrid would be attractive - it displaces alternator and starter both, is more efficient and reliable than either, and can improve both power and economy.

Hub motors are attractive to me in how simple the install would be, and I'm certain hub motors could be built which will operate at highway speeds. However, the most benefit of a hybrid is in stop and go traffic; if you're cruising along at a steady speed on the highway using electricity, you will run any reasonably small and cheap battery dry in short order (maybe 10 minutes to an hour for one that could fit in a carry-on bag). In the city, a hybrid motor/generator's main job is to slow your car down electrically, storing that energy back into the battery, which is then used to accelerate your car again. Rather than turning all of your momentum into brake dust every time you come up to a red light or stop sign, you instead store it up for later use.

The advantages of a hub motor over a belt-driven are that you can run on electricity alone, with the gas engine completely off, because it's an independent system, and that you could potentially get AWD. A belt driven one acts in parallel with your engine, adding power and allowing you to eliminate the starter. Both generate their own electricity, so you don't need an alternator.

EDIT: Frankly if it's a bolt-on (either belt driven or hub) you can probably hybridize your car for under 2 grand. There are basically four components: Motor/generator, controller, battery, controls (throttle). With it you'd greatly improve your city economy, reduce engine wear, and add power. However, I'm not familiar with hybrid retrofitting, even if it sounds relatively simple in principle - bolt an extra motor on your engine, and feed it power.

[oil pan 4]

My gas guzzler 1989 fire bird gets up to 28mpg highway. It's biggest mod is the 6-speed. Besides newer generation injectors the engine is stock.
If I thought I could pull off lean burn on this OBD1 fuel injection system with out burning valves I could get over 30mpg easy.

[elhigh]

That hubmotor concept didn't go anywhere. Kind of sad really, I thought it had potential. The first concept was clunky in the extreme, a motor bolted to the outside of the wheel and sllllooooooowwww. But it moved the car. On the inside for a finished installation it would leverage the existing hardware that mounts the rear brakes.

I think it would be kind of difficult to install on a rear drive car.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by elhigh

That hubmotor concept didn't go anywhere. Kind of sad really, I thought it had potential. The first concept was clunky in the extreme, a motor bolted to the outside of the wheel and sllllooooooowwww. But it moved the car. On the inside for a finished installation it would leverage the existing hardware that mounts the rear brakes.

I think it would be kind of difficult to install on a rear drive car.

Well, I am interested enough to see if I can help in their research by involving my car. Right now I can't purchase their unit but I can nudge them on the suggestion and see if I can get their minds to contemplate how to make such a system work on my sports car to allow for my gasoline motor to help charge this system while turning the rear wheels and this hybrid system turning the front wheels.

So long as you have a high output alternator, and I do mean something cranking out a good charge to keep power to the lithium pack, you should be able to run this system on the highway! With both the combined torque from my V8 and the electric wheel motors, both will be working half as hard and hence, my V8 is using less fuel on a lean burn air/fuel mixture while the electric motors are using less electricity being charged simultaneously by the running V8 motor.

I don't see why such a set-up would not be ideal and complimentary for the other!