How to build a muscle car for better fuel economy?

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Phoenix'97

Well, now a simple concept becomes more complicated. Why would I even want to have that integrated into my console by the shifter? Either the system works without my input or it doesn't.

It's up to you if you want it or not. Many Insight owners prefer to override the system programming on demand, and opt to install the joystick. Many just use the default programming.

Personally, I prefer to override some of the system's default settings. For example, let's say the hybrid system normally would assist up a small hill, and regen down the other side. That's great behavior. But, it can't tell the difference between a hill and a mountain, all it can tell are battery state of charge and driver input. So, I sometimes find myself driving for 20-30 minutes up a steep mountain, and the car assists for the first 10 minutes until the battery is flat, and then starts trying to regen while I'm still climbing the mountain. It's nice to be able to at least disable regen at this point.

Of course, adequately smart programming would make it so you almost never need to futz with it, and a bigger battery makes it a lot more forgiving. This was the first hybrid on the market and they've learned a lot in the last 17 years.

[Phoenix'97]

I just want something that requires as little input from me as possible! I want it to operate like the gasoline engine with it's PCM. The only joy-sticking I want to concentrate on is the manual shifting.

[Ecky]

Sounds good, MIMA is not for you then, and is absolutely not necessary to get assist and regen from a motor.

[freebeard]

Is this thread now turning into a joke? I hope not.

Well, if you don't know who the joke's on...

Just a little friendly joshing, Okay?

Why would I even want to have that integrated into my console by the shifter?

If you put it on a serious gamer joystick and replace you boring old knob, you'd have a joystick on your 'joy'-stick so you could joystick (or not) while you're 'joy'-sticking.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Ecky

probably the easiest and cheapest is a belt-mounted hybrid motor/generator - it can go in place of the alternator, bolted to the engine, with a beefier belt

I'm aware of its use only in vehicles fitted with automatic transmission, but maybe it wouldn't be so bad in a manual. I'd just be concerned about its effects on the clutch life.

motors attached in-line with the driveshaft (requires custom driveshaft, but has advantages)

Reminds me of that setup provided by ZF and currently fitted to Volvo hybrid buses, with a clutch and a motor in a single unit. Since the buses fitted with it rely on an automated-manual transmission, maybe a similar configuration could be OK with a strictly manual transmission.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Phoenix'97

The

Instead of start-stop technology, I would be willing to invest $3000 if this kit would work on my rear-wheel drive sports car.

https://www.wired.com/2012/08/hybrid-conversion/

Yeah hub motors don’t work, never have never will.

A key portion of the video says “200’/lb” (without fears that’s not enough to start electrically from a stop)

Another key portion says supplements acceleration of the gasoline motor.


Without start stop on the gas engine these motors wouldn’t do much but be expensive decorations.


Further what isn’t stated is that as you bounce along, drive in mud, salt, slush you damage and corrode the hub motors.


The only place I have seen a hub motor work is on an ebike where the rider can “push off” to get going

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Yeah hub motors don’t work, never have never will.

A key portion of the video says “200’/lb” (without fears that’s not enough to start electrically from a stop)

Another key portion says supplements acceleration of the gasoline motor.


Without start stop on the gas engine these motors wouldn’t do much but be expensive decorations.


Further what isn’t stated is that as you bounce along, drive in mud, salt, slush you damage and corrode the hub motors.


The only place I have seen a hub motor work is on an ebike where the rider can “push off” to get going

Well this University is in the process of perfecting this technology to apply to any vehicle. You see how excited I got over finding this product, although it is still in development. It beats the crap out of settling for a Prius! I want my V8 "gas guzzler"!

I have to watch the video again but I think he implies that one of these systems puts out 200 ft/lbs of torque, thus the two provide a combined 400 ft/lbs of torque!

Now, for my application, I would prefer to have the constant use of my gasoline engine, but an issue I have been constantly dealing with is the lack of low end torque and the amount of vacuum loss I encounter when trying to get my car moving from a dead stop. Even on the highway in my overdrive sixth gear, the car does not produce enough torque below 2000 RPM to permit me to cruise at around 1500 RPM as I would prefer for max fuel economy. This is where this hybrid system would aid my LT1 in fuel efficiency and power production, as ironic as that is!

You really shouldn't need start/stop on a car with this set-up because the gasoline motor will be working half as hard meaning you could essentially drive around at near idle speed when using the gasoline engine and electric hub motors to move the car, in tandem. You could even use a lower numerical number gear ratio on a manual transmission and not have to worry about lugging the motor while theoretically having insanely wonderful highway mileage because you are idling at high speed with use of those electric hub motors.

Green Energy Management (GEM) Updates | Middle Tennessee State University

The University is working to address the issue with using this style of hub motor in dirty conditions as you have described! They are now using a switched reluctance motor. Now, to use this kind of motor and to both, hide the fact my car is a hybrid and to help shield it from the elements, I already have a wheel design in mind.



A last issue to address is how to charge this system while the car is driving! A simple solution is to add two more hub motors on the drive wheels powered by the gasoline engine, only they are set to recharge the battery pack while the non-drive wheels are in operation by those hub motors. Lastly, for Decelerated Fuel Cut-Off/brake and zero throttle conditions, the entire system can be set for recharging.

[freebeard]

At this time there is not a fixed schedule but we hope to be in a position to have the first commercial version by sometime in 2016....Last Updated: Sep 13, 2017

Switched reluctance is another name for VFD.

A last issue to address is how to charge this system while the car is driving!

If there were two altermotors on a serpentine belt, you'd not get the drive train loses, so you're net loss would be less.

Viable options for charging in motion include solar panels and a pantograph on overhead wires.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The only place I have seen a hub motor work is on an ebike where the rider can “push off” to get going

The hub motor I have on one of my bikes will literally flip the bike over from a dead stop, even if I'm leaning on the handlebars, if I'm not gentle on the throttle.

The one on my trike will beat most sports cars to 30mph, also from a dead stop.



@OP, be aware that if you don't plan to charge the hybrid batteries, the periods where the motor is dragging on the car to charge the batteries needs to be just as frequent as when you're adding power, or your batteries will run flat and never get charged again. You can't just cruise along on the highway adding electric assist forever, without ever charging the batteries. That energy has to come from somewhere. You also don't want to charge the batteries while simultaneously draining them... it's like pressing the gas and brake pedals at the same time.

Most manufacturers choose to assist when you accelerate, recapture energy when you decelerate, and very occasionally sap power when cruising if there's a deficit. Sometimes when idling, they'll also apply some load to the engine to slowly top up the batteries. But, again, that energy all ultimately comes from gasoline, it's just a matter of figuring out the best times to give and take.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by freebeard

If there were two altermotors on a serpentine belt, you'd not get the drive train loses, so you're net loss would be less.

Viable options for charging in motion include solar panels and a pantograph on overhead wires.

Okay, so having two hub mounted generators operating off of the drive axle is not as efficient? I am just saying, I refuse to reconfigure my motor set-up if the hub motors are going to be this much of a royal pain to figure out how to keep charged for continuous use with the gasoline engine. I am even so desperate as to use the engine's alternator to help in the recharge efforts if it is required, albeit a higher output alternator.

Another technology to harness in the future could be the use of thin solar panel film on the car, although during the winter it won't help much.

The major selling point of this system is going to be it's ability to charge itself. Why should people be limited to the plug in charge of the lithium battery pack when you can use the gasoline motor to help in the recharge effort. An electric motor working half as hard uses less energy and a gasoline motor working half as hard uses less fuel, especially when the air/fuel ratio is leaned out and the emissions are further slashed when the fuel burned is cleaner Iso-Butanol or Bio-Diesel blended with up to 20% Bio-Butanol.

Together, both electric motors and gasoline engine complement the other and both would theoretically give you an extended driving range that not even a pure electric car could compete with! Combine the performance of a V8 gasoline engine with hybrid technology and you have a much better performing car!

TESLA, eat your heart out!