How to properly test modifications (AKA: don't believe every MPG claim you read)

[Vekke]

Ok I read this whole thread and did not see no comments on when to do the test. All conditions are usually best on the night.

- It is not so windy
- Threre is not so much traffic on motorways
- Temperature changes are not so big

You can usually see at least here in finland the estimated temperatures, water and even humidy for the next day for chosen city... So it is easy to pick up the best night conditions to do the test you have planned.

Night is especially good if you are doing coast down tests. You see if there is coming other cars from the ligths.

[MetroMPG]

Vekke: good point on evening/night testing.

Weather is mentioned...

4) Weather conditions should be as calm and stable as possible (wind gusts/changes in wind speed will throw off results)

... but not the time of day idea. I'll edit it in.

[byte312]

Yes, I understand that testing it is not easy. People don't like it either because we tend to go on faith and personal pride. We do it on the cheap because we are the little guys without the resources of the big 3 and Japan. What is DOT? Even if you can prove it to yourself, which always comes first, it is difficult to convince it to everyone else. I am not certain that I want to.
The greatest peril is personal injury, then legal issues with the EPA.
I stepped in it big with HHO. I had to drop my experiments because of legal issues, safety concerns, and alegations that it is all a scam. I had worked hard and spent over $3000. developing a complete system. I can live with looking foolish but, When you try out a modification on a car that violates the EPA rules and ignores federal safety standards you can have reason for concern. The fines are huge. Then you can worry about testing for mileage.
I am working on an electric car now. Here again, there are legal requirements, safety and the other issues. I will try to register the car and insure it as an electric car. After it is legal and safe, I still don't know if I can impress anyone with the mileage and performance.
This last point is only an issue because I think we all take pride in our creations and want to see other people follow our lead. We have tight budgets so we cut corners and leave most of the testing and proof to Myth Busters. I wonder how many illegal conversions and modifications are on the street. Maybe it is wise to build for ourselves and not advertise. I don't want to join a long list of others who attracted some very bad attention to themselves by selling thier creations or by talking too loudly.

[oldbeaver]

Dear byte312: You better work on the electric car.

I constructed two HOH systems myself. The first followed the plans sold in the Internet. It consumed 30 A and produced lot of bubles . However, rpm of the car slowed down noticeable when connected. This means it took more energy from the car (through the battery) than the energy it added as HOH gas combustion.
The engine was a Nissan aspirated diesel of 1996.
Additional problems: the system warmed up a lot, then the current consumption overflow the ammeter capacity. The stainless steel used here corroded after three loads of NAOH solution.
It was impossible to run a complete tank of diesel as water evaporated.

Then I decided to construct a second system, following instructions of an engineer from the Internet. Then I used a special, very hard, very heavy, very expensive stainless steel.
Making holes broke my tools ten times here.

It consisted on ten cells working with 1.28 Volts each.

After assembling and installed in the car, this system produced about five times more HOH gas, and used only half the electricity from the battery. So it was 10 times more efficient than previous system.
However, even though, when connected the engine slowed down, so there was a negative gain of energy too. If it was producing more bang the engine would have accelerated.
Additional problems:
Water didnn´t evaporate so quickly, but production of gas was so much that I had to attach a 12V pump to blow solution to the bubbler. Otherwise, gas becomes to push down the gas in the electrolysis device.
I wanted to sell this device to a truck transport company, but as it didn´t increase power, it wouldn´t increase fuel miling too.
It was impossible to complete a full tank with this system too, not because evaporation or consumption of water, but for foam formation, due to the pumping.

I have pictures of it. I have the system in my garage.

Conclusion: This do not work as claimed by sellers. At all.

Oldbeaver

[byte312]

Yes, those are the issues with HHO. I could only get it to work by putting vinegar, alcohol and amonia in the solution. I got some results this way but still I had to put it away and forget it.
I have talked to other people who have had big explosions because they were trying to take fumes out of the gas tank. Nice try but, boom whoops!
Did you know that the fine is $10,000 for tampering with your emissions control systems. Whoops again! No one told me about that on one of these web sites.
We both deserve credit because we tried, we some spent big money, we tested, and we were honest about it in the end.

I still press on with new projects but, I am not going to sell anything or make any big promises.
If you are interested in electronics, I will share my schematics for a motor speed controller that captures reverse EMF and motor noise. Also, it allows the motor to act as a generator when coasting. I trust that some people that I have sent schematics to will build it and test it. The guy who invents these things should not be the only person to test it out. Frankly, I am biased about my own work as we all are about our projects. However, most people will look out of curiousity, and return a negative remark without lifting a finger to build or test. This is nothing new just human nature.

[Nerys]

If you register as a custom/homebuilt MOST of the legal issues go "poof"

if you can register as a motorcycle (3 wheels or less) A MASSIVE amount of rules and legalities "go away"

why would adding HHO be illegal in any way shape or form as long as your not "altering" the actual emissions system in the car itself?

of course doing it commercially changes everything versus doing it to "your own car"

[byte312]

HHO may not violate the rules or it may. Everything that goes in the mix comes out the exhaust in some form. In California, the smog test will fail if the HHO generator is running at all. You would be wise to remove everything from the car before getting it emissions tested.
But, yes if you do it by yourself and for yourself there is less risk. I really don't want any more negative attention from it. I have dropped it like a hot rock. This is the last thing I will ever say about those three letters.

[Nerys]

ahh say no more. People's Republic of California explains all !!

[UFO]

Originally Posted by oldbeaver

Dear byte312: You better work on the electric car.

I constructed two HOH systems myself. The first followed the plans sold in the Internet. It consumed 30 A and produced lot of bubles . However, rpm of the car slowed down noticeable when connected. This means it took more energy from the car (through the battery) than the energy it added as HOH gas combustion.
The engine was a Nissan aspirated diesel of 1996.
Additional problems: the system warmed up a lot, then the current consumption overflow the ammeter capacity. The stainless steel used here corroded after three loads of NAOH solution.
It was impossible to run a complete tank of diesel as water evaporated.

Then I decided to construct a second system, following instructions of an engineer from the Internet. Then I used a special, very hard, very heavy, very expensive stainless steel.
Making holes broke my tools ten times here.

It consisted on ten cells working with 1.28 Volts each.

After assembling and installed in the car, this system produced about five times more HOH gas, and used only half the electricity from the battery. So it was 10 times more efficient than previous system.
However, even though, when connected the engine slowed down, so there was a negative gain of energy too. If it was producing more bang the engine would have accelerated.
Additional problems:
Water didnn´t evaporate so quickly, but production of gas was so much that I had to attach a 12V pump to blow solution to the bubbler. Otherwise, gas becomes to push down the gas in the electrolysis device.
I wanted to sell this device to a truck transport company, but as it didn´t increase power, it wouldn´t increase fuel miling too.
It was impossible to complete a full tank with this system too, not because evaporation or consumption of water, but for foam formation, due to the pumping.

I have pictures of it. I have the system in my garage.

Conclusion: This do not work as claimed by sellers. At all.

Oldbeaver

I'm curious how you can make the efficiency claims without showing your data. How did you "measure the electricity" and how do you know it produced "5 times more gas"? How do you account for the discrepancy between the two? You don't seriously think either system will generate more energy than it consumes do you?

[Nerys]

UFO Seriously did not read his post since he was QUITE CLEAR he did not think they worked in fact that they REDUCED fuel economy (I agree)

and NO SYSTEM ON EARTH generates more energy than it consumes. PERIOD. Every single system your brain can dream up or imagine WILL consume more energy than it produces. This is a unquestioned law of our UNIVERSE to the best of our knowledge.