The hybrid ticking time bomb

[Isaac Zachary]

There seems to be quite a few on Priuschat that have been using these batteries for a while without problems, many that seem to be old timers on the forum.

Project Lithium | Upgrade your hybrid | Feel the Lithium Power!

The qualms I have is #1, LiFePO4 shouldn't last in freezing cold weather. We have freezing temperatures 9 months out of the year, and sometimes a snow here and there in the summer.

And #2, the housing is plastic. I don't think that would be good for thermal management.

If I could make a mold of the module housings and cast them in aluminum and add some sort of heater for the winter, I would go with these. But that seems like a lot of work.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

There seems to be quite a few on Priuschat that have been using these batteries for a while without problems, many that seem to be old timers on the forum.

Project Lithium | Upgrade your hybrid | Feel the Lithium Power!

The qualms I have is #1, LiFePO4 shouldn't last in freezing cold weather. We have freezing temperatures 9 months out of the year, and sometimes a snow here and there in the summer.

And #2, the housing is plastic. I don't think that would be good for thermal management.

If I could make a mold of the module housings and cast them in aluminum and add some sort of heater for the winter, I would go with these. But that seems like a lot of work.

I know LiFePO4 should not be used in sub-freezing weather. I did, however, use one as a starter battery in Vermont's winters for a few years, and it survived. Sometimes the weather was way below zero, and the lithium pack cranked the engine over reliably, and still works to this day.

I can't account for it, and I probably wouldn't recommend it, but anecdotally...

[redpoint5]

Yeah, freezing hasn't killed my LiFePO yet either, but we've got mild winters.

[Piotrsko]

In the ranger Volt pack, freezing just reduces current flow such that it couldn't leave the neighborhood. Doesn't reduce anything else and won't charge, didn't destroy itself.

Note this is a one shot casual observation of my experiences

[redpoint5]

That's an interesting point. I'm told the Leaf has zero heating/cooling ability, so how does it operate in freezing environments where lithium ion batteries are not supposed to be charged?

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

That's an interesting point. I'm told the Leaf has zero heating/cooling ability, so how does it operate in freezing environments where lithium ion batteries are not supposed to be charged?

The early Leafs, 2011 and 2012, either wouldn't move, or had an optional battery heater.

The 2013 and after Leafs had the battery heater as standard equipment. But when I drove my 2013 Leaf last, it only went 30 miles on a charge at -15°F. The reason was the Leaf only heated the battery to just enought that it wouldn't damage it. But it wasn't enough to give it the performance necessary to actually go places. Mind you I could do over 100 miles on the same route with the same speed and driving techniques I was using that very day, such as going along at 25 mph with no heater. The battery had just dropped its first bar at the time (so still had 85% capacity).

[redpoint5]

Yeesh, that's brutal. It needs a preheat setting so it reaches optimal temperature using shore power rather than battery power.

[Piotrsko]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Yeesh, that's brutal. It needs a preheat setting so it reaches optimal temperature using shore power rather than battery power.

That's all well and good at home, but getting back from work better be downhill.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

That's all well and good at home, but getting back from work better be downhill.

Even charging with just the Leaf's puny battery heater, at times the car wouldn't charge up to 100% overnight, even with a 7kW EVSE! Imagine with a 120V standard outlet!

I have often made the comment that it would be nice if EV makers tried other battery types. Finally there are some using LiFePO4's. But I think there are climates that would benefit from NiMH or LTO batteries.

I would like to mention that around town, the Leaf did pretty well in the cold. I remember even at -25°F during the day (colder at night) it did fine putting around slowly. But under a high load going up an incline in the cold is what made it lose it.

[Piotrsko]

Ford was doing NIMH a while back. Not very sucessful.

Why not Minot? It's cold I'm told, Freezing s the reason,

High power chemical reactions prefer being warm, and coincidentally, so do I.