The hybrid ticking time bomb

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

As would I but I'm one of those weirdos that won't buy the inferior body style that is a sedan.

That said - for those with adult size rear seat passengers the Camry has 10% more passenger room. The Prius has more cargo room and that useful hatch that makes it superior to a sedan but inferior to a wagon or a crossover as we now call wagons.

For $1500 more than a Camry Hybrid I would buy a RAV4 Hybrid. I like the idea of a 40 mpg crossover. Even better would be a Ford Maverick Hybrid AWD for $30K or less.

The Prius Prime no longer qualifies for Federal incentives.

Personally I like sedans. I had a friend who's sister died from loose cargo in the rear in a 25mph single car accident. Having cargo locked up in a trunk seems safer to me. A good net or other barrier would be a must for me, which is going to take up space. Last I checked, the RAV4 also had less legroom than the Camry. I also hate crossovers and am not sure why. I do like the Maverick though. Why I like the Maverick and hate the RAV4, I don't know.

If I need to take something big I hook up my little 4x8 flatbed trailer I have. I once hauled a piano with my Avalon for a guy with a RAV4 that showed up thinking he could just put the piano in his RAV4. Of course towing a trailer may be less safe than having stuff tied down real well in the back of a crossover. At any rate, this also brings up another thing with me anyhow. I'd have to get a model that there's a way to attach a tow hitch to.

[JSH]

I don't hate crossovers because they are wagons with a slight lift - which is fine by me. But if you don't like wagons it would make sense that you wouldn't like crossovers.

The Bolt EV handles the majority of our driving - the 2nd vehicle is for getting to trailheads - down gravel roads in the summer and snowy roads in the winter. The extra ground clearance is nice as is AWD without much of a mpg penalty. Can you take 2wd cars down forest roads - sure I've done it plenty of times - but the extra ground clearance is nice to speed things up.

Something like that now discontinued VW Alltrack would be perfect - extra ground clearance without the extra roof height. Perfect at least if it wasn't a VW and didn't get horrible fuel economy. Subarus are the popular choice here for that role but - again - horrible fuel economy.

[redpoint5]

Pretty sure there's a hitch for all those cars, though some aren't tow rated.

I was hot for a RAV4 even prior to the Prime, but I checked out the interior space and felt like it was just a taller version of the Prius, with perhaps an even smaller rear hatch area. My perceptions might be off, but even if it has more square feet in the interior than the Prius, it wasn't perceptible enough to motivate me to buy one...

The things making me want a RAV4 Prime are AWD, 300 horsepower, 40 MPG, 40 mile EV range. Those aren't something to be lightly dismissed even though I place a high value on more seating and cargo area.

[Ecky]

At those rates, I can't see any of them being compelling. I'd drive the Avalon until the battery craps out (hopefully many years), replace one cell (to get the light off), and sell it then.

[Isaac Zachary]

Here's what it would cost to fuel these vehicles for 5 years @ $4.5 per gallon:

• Prius Prime = $4211 half fuel, half electricity
• RAV4 Prime = $5966 half fuel, half electricity
• Prius Prime = $7292 100% fuel
• Camry Hybrid = $7572
• Corolla Hybrid = $7572
• Ford Maverik = $10,642
• Mitsubishi Mirage = $10,642
• VW Jetta = $11,581
• Chevy Spark = $13,125
• Nissan Versa = $13,125
• Corolla non-hybrid = $11,932

Originally Posted by Ecky

At those rates, I can't see any of them being compelling. I'd drive the Avalon until the battery craps out (hopefully many years), replace one cell (to get the light off), and sell it then.

That is definitely the plan, unless it were totaled any time soon.

Cost to fuel it for 5 years @ $4.5 per gallon:

• 2013 Avalon hybrid = $9844

[Varn]

For the average person owning the hybrid, will not budget for the replacement battery and will be SOL when the battery fails.

With gas only you have an idea of how much your expenses will be.

I have always liked the idea or a hybrid but the idea of replacing a multi-thousand dollar battery is a total turn off as I always buy used vehicles and never have a car payment

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

You are right.

2020 Toyota Sienna V6: 20mpg combined @ 12,000 miles per year for 15 years @ $3 per gallon is $27,000. In the 2020 Toyota Sienna hybrid with those same numbers but @36mpg it's $15,000 total.

That's $12,000 in savings, much greater than the $7,000 battery. And if you factor in fuel is probably going to be more like $4 or $5 average for the next 15 years a person would save even more.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Varn

For the average person owning the hybrid, will not budget for the replacement battery and will be SOL when the battery fails.

With gas only you have an idea of how much your expenses will be.

I have always liked the idea or a hybrid but the idea of replacing a multi-thousand dollar battery is a total turn off as I always buy used vehicles and never have a car payment

Either you are a person that has an emergency fund for these types of expenses or you aren't. Someone that doesn't have money to replace a battery won't have money to replace a transmission or an engine, or the A/C. Expanding that out, they won't have the money for a new roof, furnace, stove, water heater , etc, etc. They will have to fund any of these normal costs of life with credit.

[JSH]

Those monthly payments are pretty crazy considering most are more than I've ever paid per month for a vehicle all-in (Purchase, fuel, maintenance, insurance)

2003 Jetta Wagon TDI - $345 per month (driving 23,904 miles per year)
2005 Toyota Prius - $270 per month (driving 12,688 miles per year)
2009 Toyota Prius - $264 per month (driving 8924 miles per year)
2014 Jetta Wagon TDI - $142 per month (driving 9732 miles per year)
2016 Chevy Spark EV - $183 (driving 7949 miles per year)

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

I don't hate crossovers because they are wagons with a slight lift - which is fine by me. But if you don't like wagons it would make sense that you wouldn't like crossovers.

I would take a shorter wagon over a taller crossover.

Here's an example of what I see when I compare a crossover to the competition:

Camry vs. RAV4 (at least when I researched back in 2020):

• The Camry costs less than the RAV4
• The Camry gets better fuel mileage than the RAV4
• The Camry has more leg room than the RAV4
• The Camry has a 5 star crash rating from NHTSA whereas the RAV4 only has a 4 star rating
• The Camry has a Top Safety Pick + from the IIHS as is, the RAV4 doesn't even get into the Top Safety Pick category unless it has certain options.
• And if you think the RAV4 is a heavy weight so it's not an apples to apples comparison when it comes to safety, the reality is (when compared with similar options) the RAV4 is only 50 to 70 lbs heavier than the Camry

So yes, the Camry does have half the cargo space as the RAV4. But if Toyota made and sold a Camry Wagon, it would likely have all the advantages above plus the extra cargo space.

This reminds me when Mazda stopped selling the Mazda 6 wagon in the USA back in 2008 and replaced it with the CX-5 crossover. The wagon had more passenger and cargo room, better fuel mileage, better power and cost less.

Originally Posted by JSH

extra ground clearance without the extra roof height.

To me crossovers have too much roof height. Not that head room is a bad thing, but the greater the crossectional area and the boxier the shape the worse the aerodynamic drag. And a crossover seems to be going for both boxier and a bigger crossection.

I'd prefer cars to be built a bit shorter and longer. It just makes more sense in my head.

Originally Posted by JSH

The extra ground clearance is nice as is AWD without much of a mpg penalty. Can you take 2wd cars down forest roads - sure I've done it plenty of times - but the extra ground clearance is nice to speed things up.

I must admit there has been a few times I wished I had a higher ground clearance or maybe even AWD. But to me there's more penalties than just fuel mileage: crossovers also cost more and also have less leg room.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Pretty sure there's a hitch for all those cars, though some aren't tow rated.

The Avalon also isn't tow rated. But I do have a custom hitch on it that comes through the bumper instead of one that hangs down and drags like on most cars.

Originally Posted by JSH

Those monthly payments are pretty crazy considering most are more than I've ever paid per month for a vehicle all-in (Purchase, fuel, maintenance, insurance)

Of course I calculated fuel at $4.50 per gallon. These are new cars, not 3-year-old cars that normally would cost about half as much. And this is a 5 year loan, so if someone had a 7 year loan they might see lower prices. And add to that the resale or trade-in value of a previous car.

Here's the totals after 10 and 15 years ownership:

Total/average monthly
10 Years, 175,000 miles:

• Mitsubishi Mirage = $40,102/$334
• Chevy Spark = $42,825/$356
• Prius Prime = $44,711/$373
• Corolla Hybrid = $45,792/$382
• Nissan Versa = $46,545/$388
• Ford Maverick = $48,262/$402
• VW Jetta = $49,381/$412
• Corolla non-hybrid = $50,152/$418
• Camry Hybrid = $50,592/$422
• RAV4 Prime = $62,186/$518

15 Years, 262,500 miles:

• Prius Prime = $48,922/$272
• Mitsubishi Mirage = $50,744/$288
• Corolla Hybrid = $53,364/$296
• Chevy Spark = $55,950/$310
• Camry Hybrid = $58,164/$323
• Ford Maverick = $58,904/$327
• Nissan Versa = $59,670/$332
• VW Jetta = $60,962/$339
• Corolla non-hybrid = $62,084/$344
• RAV4 Prime = $62,186/$378

[redpoint5]

Probably most people who are 2nd owners of a vehicle finance it. Probably when they make their final payment, they are bored of the car and trade it in on another payment. A major malfunction doesn't affect their situation much because they were always going to throw most of the value of the vehicle away in trade and continue their monthly payment as just one of those unavoidable American expenses, like the cable bill, expensive cell phone plans that come with a "free phone", and lots of eating prepared food.