Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[88CRX]

Originally Posted by john_bud

First I would like to say that I am a chemical engineer and a car nut. As such, I am the natural predator of bogus automobile technobabble.
As sold, 99.99999% of all the HHO generators sold are pure ripoff. Straight scam. Taking your money.

jb

Thanks for the info.

There is the .000001. that is not a rip off. I'm wondering, which kit do you think works?

[88CRX]

Originally Posted by john_bud

There are some claims and links to prove hydrogen does help. It does, but at a concentration of about 10-15% in the air stream. These units are under 1% enrichment. Uh, the lower explosive limit is 4%. Any bells ringing out the BS song yet? There are also some posts that the flame propagation speed of hydrogen is faster than gasoline. WRONG! Hydrogen flame rate is about 1/70th of gasoline's. That's from the standard engineering handbooks. Look it up yourself and see.

What it does do is allows a far leaner fuel to air ratio to be ignited. The explosive limits of gasoline and air are such that it is VERY hard to ignite when over 20:1 air:fuel ratio. But, if you add enough hydrogen (10% --15% is better!), you can lean out the air/fuel ratio to 25:1 or 30:1 and still have it ignite.

jb

This is really great information.

So i enough hydrogen can be produced, you can burn a leaner mixture. That is how it works.

The major drawback is the pollution!!!

[john_bud]

Which unit do I think works? Depends on the definition of "works", as the prez used to say. I don't know of any that efficiently make hydrogen and do the engine controls (new ECM map, new type of O2 sensor for the extremely lean mixture, new fuel injectors for the much lower amount of fuel, new pistons and valves for the new flame propagation regime, etc.) I postulate that there could be one out there that works should it do all of that. Low probability, but not certainty.

Now if you were to put a 6-10 hp steam engine (yes --> steam engine!) in the exhaust stream, you could recapture some of the waste heat to power an electrical generator. You could use it to make H2 if you so desire.

However.... a smarter use would be to convert the entire car to a gas/steam electric car with the engine(s) used to charge the batteries. Much like a diesel train or the new Cat Dozer - the motive force comes from electric motors. They are 2x the efficiency in converting energy to linear motion compared to a gasoline powered Otto 4 cycle. The electricity would come from the battery bank and be charged up while running and once charged higher acceleration would come from the use of the dual generators and battery. Drawback is higher weight, higher complexity etc. But, you would "just" need a 35-40hp gasoline engine and the small steam engine along with 2 generators. The exhaust heat trap to power the steamer and a water to water heat exchanger to pre-heat the steamer water. Plus the "cool factor" would be very high!

jb

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by john_bud

Failure to pipe up (even on a first post) is evidence of acquiescence. Remember silence is acquiescence in the face of the law. It does not take courage to keep quiet and let wrongs continue. I hope you and others would pipe up and stop people from sending money to the deposed king of Sudan in exchange for a $100,000 check.

Sure I would, I just wouldn't feel the need to tell them they are dumber than a fourth grader for considering it.

Like I said, good information otherwise, the six stroke engine is particularly interesting, I only just recently learned of this concept. And I read an article about BMW experimenting with steam hybrids. It seems like an obvious thing to do. 75% of the energy created by burning gasoline in an ICE is converted into waste heat, that seems like it really should be the first place to look when it comes to improving an ICE's efficiency.

[john_bud]

Originally Posted by Formula413

Sure I would, I just wouldn't feel the need to tell them they are dumber than a fourth grader for considering it.

.

When you're right, you're right.

jb

[budgenator]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hello,

The basic principle of this sort of device is impossible -- it is a perpetual motion machine (if it were true!) and therefore it is bunk.

I think the OP is a Spammer...

Not impossible I've seen reputable reports of big-rig diesels getting a solid real-world improvement of 10% with theses devices. The 2H2+O2 gas is drawn into the engine improve the combustion efficiency, the worst the combustion efficiency is the bigger the improvement is. It works but it's not the magic-bullet that some claim it is.

[fshagan]

Originally Posted by budgenator

Not impossible I've seen reputable reports of big-rig diesels getting a solid real-world improvement of 10% with theses devices. The 2H2+O2 gas is drawn into the engine improve the combustion efficiency, the worst the combustion efficiency is the bigger the improvement is. It works but it's not the magic-bullet that some claim it is.

I don't think I've seen any of the home-made or "hydrogen on demand" devices that have been studied. The information I've seen on big rigs is that blended fuel, where they use compressed hydrogen from a tank that is injected to take up about half of the volume normally taken by diesel, has some beneficial effects. Because it cools combustion it reduces NOx emissions, and they seen MPG improvements over diesel alone. The information I've seen never mentions what the cost of the compressed hydrogen is, so I've never been able to figure out if the blended fuel systems are economical or not.

The home-built units you see now should be tested in a controlled environment; small changes in driving behavior can make a dramatic improvement in MPG for most drivers, and I suspect the main beneficial effect of these devices is that the drivers are coasting more, etc. without even realizing it.

[rykoala]

A local 4x4 shop is installing these kits for about $800. One driver says they got 50% better mileage with it.

What does it include in the kit, along with instructions and personal help on how to use it?

A *scanguage*.

[oldschool]

I wonder what that guy was messin with , 100 amps is way out ot the park for most cells.The smack boosterusually runs about 20 amps max, and your car radio takes 10amps. I see a lot of people splicing into the hot wire on their windshield wiper motor for power so the draw can't be that much.

No this isn't perpetual motion, thats crazy, and maybe it takes more energy to make the gas then it gives back to burn it , I don't know , but the alternator is spinnin and the power in many cases is doin nuthin, which is more wastefull in my eyes.

a 20 amp draw on an efficient cell will make 1.7 liters of gas a minute which equates to on average 20% bettermpg on large vehicles and 30% on small ones

[john_bud]

Originally Posted by oldschool

I wonder what that guy was messin with , 100 amps is way out ot the park for most cells.The smack boosterusually runs about 20 amps max, and your car radio takes 10amps. I see a lot of people splicing into the hot wire on their windshield wiper motor for power so the draw can't be that much.

No this isn't perpetual motion, thats crazy, and maybe it takes more energy to make the gas then it gives back to burn it , I don't know , but the alternator is spinnin and the power in many cases is doin nuthin, which is more wastefull in my eyes.

a 20 amp draw on an efficient cell will make 1.7 liters of gas a minute which equates to on average 20% bettermpg on large vehicles and 30% on small ones

There are some slight technical weaknesses in your point of view wrt alternators. They don't generate any "extra" power, nor do they produce a very great drag when not needed. You may not be conversant with the normal operations of one. As an electrical load is applied to the system (turn on lights, radio, washers, heated seat, etc), the system voltage sags or drops. The voltage regulator energizes the field in the alternator when the voltage potential drops below a preset threshold. When that happens, it takes power to turn the alternator. 2-8 hp is the usual figure depending on the size of the alternator, the rpm and the current load it is supplying. When the system voltage reaches the high set point, the voltage regulator then no longer energizes the field in the alternator and the power requirements to turn it drop to just frictional losses. So, there is very very very little wasted energy from the alternator that you can tap into for "free".

The scientific papers I have read indicate t a fumigation rate of at least 10% (that's total air volume to hydrogen volume in ratio of 10 air to 1 hydrogen or 10:1) is needed to make meaningful improvements in extremely lean conditions. Extremely lean is where the air to fuel ratio (on a mass basis) is over 20:1, preferably 25:1. In fact, you can increase the hydrogen slightly and lean out the fuel to the point where it is not spark combustible and the hydrogen will provide the combustion initiation. That's where you get the fuel economy gains. The down side is dramatically higher combustion temperatures and dramatically higher formation of NOx's. Oxides of nitrogen are the principle component in smog, brown haze, 1970 vintage LA air.

You can make your engine operate in those conditions, but you will need to get a different ECM map, spark timing, different O2 sensor, and a few other things too. And you will certainly not pass any smog sniff test, as you will be spewing more gunk out your tail pipe than '55 Buick running on 5 of 8 cylinders.

You can do the math on the amount of hydrogen you need to evolve by knowing the displacement of the engine, the operational RPM's and the manifold vacuum. You need to also understand that a 4 cycle engine consumes 1/2 it's displacement every 360 degrees of rotation.

For a 1000 cc (1 liter) engine operating at 2000 rpm with a manifold vacuum of 20 in hg it will consume the following volume of air. (ambient air pressure is about 30 in hg)

1 liter * 1/2 * 2000 rpm * (1-20/30) = 166 liter of air per minute. (I used a 1 liter engine so you can multiply by the actual size of you engine to get your requirements.)

Note that I'm neglecting the thermal effects of expansion as the hydrogen / oxygen gas is evolved at approximately the same temperature as the air being consumed due to the heating from the electrolysis process and the thermal environment of the engine compartment.

So, to get to a 10% level, you would need to evolve 16 liters of hydrogen per minute. Using your number of 20 amps = 1.7 liter per minute of TOTAL gas, that's just over 1 liter of hydrogen as the gas mix is 2/3 H2 and 1/3 O2. So to make a meaningful impact, you should generate 15 times that amount of gas and would need 300 amps of current. That's a pretty tall order. Remember to multiply the gas and current requirement by the actual engine size too. So a 3 liter engine would need 900 amps of current and 45 liters of hydrogen or 60 liters of total gas evolution. That's a bunch! Now imagine what it would be at 5000 rpm's at at full throttle (zero manifold vacuum).

3 liter*1/2*5000* (1-0/30)=7500 liters per minute air consumption and you would need 750 liters of hydrogen (1250 liters total gas). It would take 14,700 amps of current using your 20 amps = 1.7 total gas figure. Hope you have a LARGE alternator!

The other area to address would be the variability in air consumption. At idle with closed throttle compared to 5000 rpm with wide open throttle, there is a dramatic difference in air requirements. I have yet to see where the electrolysis cells are modulated to produce 20:1 variable volumes of gas to maintain a constant 10% hydrogen in the combustion chamber. Also, the time lag between pressing the throttle and the generation of the gas would be annoying. It takes several seconds for the gas evolution to pick up and until it does (in an extremely lean engine) the combustion process would fail as the air/fuel is not in a spark ignitable ratio. I certainly wouldn't enjoy flooring it and having the engine die! I suppose transient enrichment could be programmed in to the ECM, but that adds a further layer of parameters to account. But what happens when you merge into traffic on the freeway at wide open throttle, start to generate the 1250 liters per minute of gas, then you close the throttle? Does the engine continue to rev up as you are still feeding it that gas rate for several seconds as the dissolved gas in the water forms bubbles and those bubbles pop? It would also be troublesome to have the engine over rev when you want to stop. I suppose you could vent the hydrogen, but spewing out a highly flamable gas does not sound smart.

The actual combustion of fuel into heat, water and CO2 is about 98% to 99.8% efficient. Meaning there is very little unburnt hydrocarbons exiting the combustion chamber of a modern engine in working order. Cold start there is a lot and that's why you have a cat converter. But once warmed up, you could cut if off and wouldn't materially effect pollution. The often quoted 25-30% efficiency is in converting the chemical energy into work. The Otto cycle gasoline engine is not very good at that and it has tremendous amounts of waste heat. That heat goes out the exhaust as hot gasses and is transfered out the radiator and engine compartment as hot air.

Hope that helps,
jb