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Old 01-04-2013, 08:43 PM   #581 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AlaricD View Post
Not sure where the sun comes in from all of this (other than we need it in general)-- I thought it was gravity.
Gravity is not a source of energy either. The sun heats the water and drops it as rain on the higher elevations - that's why it's "solar" energy.

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:34 PM   #582 (permalink)
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Gravity is not a source of energy either. The sun heats the water and drops it as rain on the higher elevations - that's why it's "solar" energy.
Well, in that case, about 75% of Earth's energy comes from hydrogen, with the other 25% coming from helium.

Were it not for gravity, the water wouldn't fall nor would it drive turbines.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:16 PM   #583 (permalink)
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It's the "water cycle". Sun AND gravity causing water to constantly rise and fall. The weight of the water at higher elevation (like above the dam) is "potential energy". When if falls, it becomes "kinetic engergy", transferred to the turbine becoming mechanical energy, and then electrical energy. - if I remember my grade school science class correctly -

I'm not sure gravity is actually "energy"? It's a "force", right? When interacting with objects of mass, "potential energy" is created out of that interaction....

As I recall, even Einstein was struggling to figure out what gravity actually is ......

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Old 01-05-2013, 12:19 AM   #584 (permalink)
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Right. The "energy" from water specifically from disassociation and re-oxidation, which is always net negative.
Yes, that does remove some of the other potential methods ... but there is one more left... kind of.

Even if a bit more free to me and not actually free , kind of thing.

Net negative in application ... due to limitations in efficiency of devises ... efficiency limitations of the devices which are limited for good reason... not any kind of conspiracy , we just can't make these things that efficient.

Technically the splitting of water under some conditions can be a very mild endothermic chemical reaction ... ie it pulls some of the heat energy out of the ambient heat of it's environment ... the small amount of endothermic energy is energy that could potentially be free to the user sense the user might not have had to pay for that energy ... ultimately it just isn't enough to over come the efficient limitations of even the most efficient devices.

Similar concept of getting more out than you pay for ... many heat pumps that can output more joules of heat energy than the amount of joules of electrical energy the user paid for to run it ... the additional heat beyond the amount of energy the user paid for are not magic ... they still come from somewhere ... but they can be from a source that the user did not have to pay for.

Sadly this is just not a large enough effect even in ideal conditions for the case of H2O / HHO to overcome the limitations on the device efficiencies.

In short the combination round trip of all the 3 steps would combined have to be over about ~83% efficient even under ideal best case endothermic conditions ... which is just too high.
Step #1> Convert electrical energy to chemical energy ... Electrolysis.
Step #2> Convert chemical energy to mechanical energy ... ICE.
Step #3> Convert mechanical energy to electrical energy ... Alternator.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:31 PM   #585 (permalink)
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Step #4 In the 1977 mechanix illustrated magazine the university of arizona built a hydrogen asisted car. They used waste heat. It got an estimated 50% in increase in fuel economy.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:50 PM   #586 (permalink)
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How did they capitalize on the "waste heat"? Sterling engine?
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:10 PM   #587 (permalink)
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How did they capitalize on the "waste heat"? Sterling engine?
No otto. Prototype was on vw engine. Then installed on pinto car. (don't know if pinto engine)Nickel catalyst pellets. Can't find it on google books. I have magazine.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:13 PM   #588 (permalink)
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I thought the "otto cycle" was the same as our ICEs? I don't understand how external heat could power that. Or is it like the EXTERNAL cycle of a steam engine? Damn, sometimes I wish I knew more!!! LOL
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:34 PM   #589 (permalink)
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You have to remember there is a factional production of hydrogen. The peak pressure can go over 1000 psi in a ICE. With combustion fame edge temps of up to 4900f. They are useing small amounts of steam. I've used steam it dosn't bring down peak flame temps at the right injection rates.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:47 PM   #590 (permalink)
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Oh, like the "Steam-o-lean" engine of Bruce Crower's? Or more like a simple water enjection? - or like a real steam engine out of a train?

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