Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Since you can turn it on and off with a switch I would hope so.
Almost no one else seems to be able to do this for some reason.

My post on the thermochemistry of the possible process will not make it a simple switch over. Several variables will be measured/manipulated.

[gus]

I recently joined this forum thinking that "hydrogen generator experiment" would have a lot of posts by modders who have actually built, bought, installed, modified or otherwise "experimented" with HHO.

What I found in actual fact is, that after posting information about my system and other misc. relating to the experimenting with the system etc. the usual crop of "experts" impart their wisdom, none of which appears to be based on facts derived from their own experimentation.

I am far from satisfied that what little knowledge I have is all there is out there. My first experiment 2 years ago resulted in failure due to a number of errors I made. My cost at that time was around $200.00. That did not deter me from trying again. Admittedly not everybody has $ in any amount to just blow on some dumb idea. There must be members of this forum though who have tried, or are busy with HHO experimenting.
It would be nice to hear from them as by the sharing of information this will develop further
Cheers
Gus

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by gus

They do not show fuel savings but certainly indicate in one case the emission reduction.

Look more carefully at what is actually being shown and what is not.

They showed a reduction in two specific emissions ... and showed you nothing about any of the other types of emissions... the only 2 they showed are opacity ( smoke ) , and CO2... I did not see any other emissions test results being posted at all.

As I already posted previously you have to be more specific about what emissions.

What happened to the NOx emission? ... I didn't see them testing it at all.
What happened to the CO emissions? ... I didn't see them testing it at all.
etc... etc.

Originally Posted by gus

For what its worth, my experience is cleaner exhaust, much more power.

Unless your experience includes instrumentation that can actually measure these other known harmful emissions ... sorry not good enough.

Originally Posted by gus

As far as the fuel savings go, after a very small test I feel safe to say that maybe up to 30% savings will be achieved. I run a 1991 Toyota Hiace 2,4ltr turbo diesel. I don't have much opportunity to get a clear shot a highway driving and these vehicles are guzzlers around town.
Cheers
Gus

I know you've claimed this ... more than once ... and I'm still waiting for you to answer some questions you haven't got around to yet.

The two biggest yet missing pieces are:

#1> Tell me how you quantified / measured the amount of fuel used during your short test run?

#2> How did you measure the distance?

My 3rd I'd like to know is if the two different trips were driven in the same amount of time? ( ie how similar was the average speed )

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

However, the speed of the hydrogen flame is not the fulcrum as the mass ratio of H2 that can be added via electrolysis is far below the lower flammability limit (LFL) of hydrogen. I surmise the H2 acts as a reactant that changes the fuel mix properties.

If it is bellow the LFL than the H is not burning / reacting with the air.

What chemical reaction do you think the injected H is going to have with the fuel? ... If you're too lean to react with the air ... the only other thing to react with in the combustion chamber is the fuel... so what reaction with the fuel are you expecting?

Also ... how lean are you planning to run the engine? ... you have the stoich air for the fuel's A:F ... and as lean as 25 more parts of air for each part of Hydrogen for the hydrogen to burn ... but you're saying you will be too lean for the hydrogen.

[RustyLugNut]

If it is bellow the LFL than the H is not burning / reacting with the air.

What chemical reaction do you think the injected H is going to have with the fuel? ... If you're too lean to react with the air ... the only other thing to react with in the combustion chamber is the fuel... so what reaction with the fuel are you expecting?

I answered this in part in my post above. The H2 readily forms reactive OH- radicals. This participates in the branch reactions of the combustion flame front.

Also ... how lean are you planning to run the engine? ... you have the stoich air for the fuel's A:F ... and as lean as 25 more parts of air for each part of Hydrogen for the hydrogen to burn ... but you're saying you will be too lean for the hydrogen.

The gasoline mass air/fuel ratio I would like to target is 30:1. Again, H2 is a relatively small quantity of reactant and not the bulk fuel. The gasoline makeup is what we are hoping to change with the addition of H2 and manipulation of certain parameters.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

I answered this in part in my post above. The H2 readily forms reactive OH- radicals. This participates in the branch reactions of the combustion flame front.

I read that ... but I skipped addressing the OH issue before in favor of what I thought was the overall concept being described... H2 being used to allow leaner air to fuel ratios that still support combustion.

Here is my 2 bits on the H2 -> OH concept:
Bit#1> The H2 produced by the electrolysis will not break those hydrogen bonds of H2 until it chemically reacts ... for it to react with oxygen ... to form either H2O or in HO ... that is chemical reaction that takes input energy in order to break the initial hydrogen bonds of the H2... if the H2 is reacting with the O2 in the air to form some HO and/or H2O you are not beyond the LFL ... at least not locally where the H2 molecule reacts ... the LFL is more about the spread of the flame front ... the reaction of 2H2+O2->2H2O can happen at any A:F ratio if the energy to break the initial Bonds of H2 and O2 are supplied to the local area where those two molecules are in close proximity to each other ... beyond the LFL it just won't spread , or propagate through the area.

Bit#2> I suspect you might be thinking of the self ionization that liquid water freely forms into OH- and H3O+ ... a phenomenon that is not shared with the bonds of the H2 molecule... H2O does freely disassociate into H2 + O2 as the temperature increases ... using heat energy instead of electrical energy ... but that also is about H2O , not the bonds in H2 produced from the proposed electrolysis of water.

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

The gasoline mass air/fuel ratio I would like to target is 30:1. Again, H2 is a relatively small quantity of reactant and not the bulk fuel. The gasoline makeup is what we are hoping to change with the addition of H2 and manipulation of certain parameters.

I get the H2 is a small % additive ... and I get that it is being intended to act as an method of supporting Lean Burn to leaner A:F ratios ... but the mechanism it can do this by is by Hydrogen's much faster flame speed... and to a lesser extend the lower density of the H2 gas itself as it disperses into the medium.

And of course other parameters will need to be manipulated to run a engine significantly lean ... in any engine not originally designed to be run significantly Lean... lean burn modification with or without the H2 injection.

Sense we also already know that Lean Burn has it's own benefits in and of itself , even without H2 injection ... the question becomes if the H2 injection will add enough net additional benefit beyond the non-H2 Injection Lean Burn... because we know the H2 injection will introduce additional penalties due to the increased load on the alternator to produce it... the benefits beyond normal Lean Burn have to be significantly greater than the penalties of the additional alternator load... if it is not a net of significantly better than just the lean burn by itself ... it isn't offering a significant benefit.

[AlaricD]

This thread was started in April 2009 by a spammer, and it's STILL going on?

Wow.

[Xist]

I wonder who reads very much of this thread after seeing that the original poster was banned.

Over five hundred messages!

[wmjinman]

Originally Posted by Xist

I wonder who reads very much of this thread after seeing that the original poster was banned.

Over five hundred messages!

Well, every time it pops up to the "most recent" status, I usually give it a look.

[jamesforman]

Sorry to be a complete newbie but I'm such interested in this new way to reduce fuel consumption.
I found this kit HHO on and look for more informations.
Does anyone knows about this kind of systems ?
Thanks !

[UFO]

Originally Posted by wmjinman

Well, every time it pops up to the "most recent" status, I usually give it a look.

Yep, it's a hydra that won't die. Cut off one head, and two more take its place.