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Old 07-07-2020, 09:04 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Right now diesel trucks can run natural gas fumigation straight into the intake.
LNG sounds expensive.
These things aren't going anywhere till the diesel trucks can fill up with CNG anywhere they need to.
You know what that means, more natural gas pipe lines.

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Old 07-08-2020, 01:41 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Right now diesel trucks can run natural gas fumigation straight into the intake.
LNG sounds expensive.
These things aren't going anywhere till the diesel trucks can fill up with CNG anywhere they need to.
You know what that means, more natural gas pipe lines.
CNG and LNG will take off when large fleets decide it is cheaper to run than diesel. Emission regulations are helping to speed that transition as NG trucks burn clean enough to avoid urea injection and particulate filters. They are as simple as pre-emission diesels.

UPS recently announced they are adding an additional 6000 CNG vehicles between 2020 and 2022. The don't give the breakdown between medium duty and heavy duty. UPS runs a mixed fleet of 3800 CNG vehicles today with 31 private fueling stations.

They also run a fleet of 1300 LNG Class 8 tractors and operate 15 LNG fueling stations.


Today there are 1000 public CNG and 90 LNG fueling stations with multiple coast to coast routes. There are also plenty of NG pipelines to add more and a steady supply of cheap gas from fracking. It is way simpler to add to the natural gas infrastructure than to try to start over with hydrogen or HD electric charging stations (which are impractical anyway)
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Old 07-08-2020, 09:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Cng only needs a high pressure pump, storage tank and metering system. We ran our system off city mains that existed. Found out that the utilities added compressed air to the gas in winter to increase flow.
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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It already is cheaper than diesel. Last time I was at a CNG station it was $1.41 cents for one gallon of diesel equivalent of natural gas.
LNG likely won't be cheaper as its so expensive to cool it to the temperature where it becomes a liquid. Compressing it is very cheap and simple by comparison.
CNG can be provided by the company if they have natural gas service and are willing to buy a CNG system since 1 million BTUs only costs around $3. That's the energy of about 7 gallons of diesel.
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:52 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
CNG and LNG will take off when large fleets decide it is cheaper to run than diesel.
I wouldn't hold my breath for LNG due to the higher cost of processing and its more dangerous storage. CNG on the other hand only needs to become more easily available. In my hometown Porto Alegre it's still widely used by taxi drivers even though the price skyrocketted recently, while in smaller cities with fewer stations providing CNG refuelling even commercial operators are not using it anymore. Not to mention Bolivia where imports of vehicles with Diesel engines below 4-litre were forbidden in 2004 or 2005 initially could be seen as a step toward a transition to CNG but such plan failed because CNG stations were not fairly distributed on a nationwide basis, or in Venezuela where CNG also failed as a desperate attempt to release more gasoline and Diesel fuel for export at higher prices than the heavily subsidized domestic market.


Quote:
Emission regulations are helping to speed that transition as NG trucks burn clean enough to avoid urea injection and particulate filters. They are as simple as pre-emission diesels.
Urea injection is a PITA, and so are the particulate filters. Considering smaller trucks and vans for which naturally-aspirated gassers are still favored in the USA, Mexico and Canada, a transition to CNG might be quite smooth.


Quote:
It is way simpler to add to the natural gas infrastructure than to try to start over with hydrogen or HD electric charging stations (which are impractical anyway)
Even resorting to biomethane, which could not only provide a better destination to organic waste in general but also decrease the release of raw methane into the atmosphere and serve as a way to add value to byproducts of farming such as livestock manure, makes more sense than hydrogen. A switch to full electrification of motoring is quite a pipedream as much as hydrogen.
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Old 07-08-2020, 11:21 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
It already is cheaper than diesel. Last time I was at a CNG station it was $1.41 cents for one gallon of diesel equivalent of natural gas.
LNG likely won't be cheaper as its so expensive to cool it to the temperature where it becomes a liquid. Compressing it is very cheap and simple by comparison.
CNG can be provided by the company if they have natural gas service and are willing to buy a CNG system since 1 million BTUs only costs around $3. That's the energy of about 7 gallons of diesel.
There is much more to cost than just fuel cost. There is the extra cost of the engine, the tanks, training your maintenance workers, stocking extra parts, different oils, etc. Then there is the resale value. Most large fleets only keep their trucks for 3-5 years.

The problem with CNG is range. It works fine for local delivery but the range is a bit short for long-haul. Agility's largest CNG side tank is only 60 DGE. You can add a cabinet tank that holds 175 DGE but that makes for a long truck on a sleeper. Most CNG trucks are daycabs running set routes.
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Old 07-09-2020, 06:21 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
There is the extra cost of the engine, the tanks, training your maintenance workers, stocking extra parts, different oils, etc. Then there is the resale value.
Resale value seems to be more critical, but since most of those dedicated-CNG engines fitted to heavy commercial vehicles (including buses) still share some components with their Diesel counterparts it might remain cost-effective for some operators.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:05 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
There is much more to cost than just fuel cost. There is the extra cost of the engine, the tanks, training your maintenance workers, stocking extra parts, different oils, etc. Then there is the resale value. Most large fleets only keep their trucks for 3-5 years.

The problem with CNG is range. It works fine for local delivery but the range is a bit short for long-haul. Agility's largest CNG side tank is only 60 DGE. You can add a cabinet tank that holds 175 DGE but that makes for a long truck on a sleeper. Most CNG trucks are daycabs running set routes.
That sounds like a good place to start.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Resale value seems to be more critical, but since most of those dedicated-CNG engines fitted to heavy commercial vehicles (including buses) still share some components with their Diesel counterparts it might remain cost-effective for some operators.
I did a little more poking around last night and found a pretty good 2020 report by San Bernardino on 202 natural gas trucks purchased by Ryder leasing.

https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/2020public...0-2020-122.pdf

The upcharge for a CNG truck is about $50,000. That is a big upfront cost to make back in fuel savings though the savings are significant:

Quote:
"One main benefit of natural gas for commercial trucking fleets is its low and stable price relative to conventional transportation fuels. At the two LCNG stations constructed and operated by Ryder, fuel prices during the project period in 2012 and 2013 were at $2.57 per diesel gallon equivalent (DGE) for CNG, and $2.79 per DGE for LNG. Diesel fuel prices in California were around $4.18 per gallon, providing a cost advantage of about $1.50 per DGE for both fuels."
CNG trucks are also signifigantly heavier than diesel trucks with similar range. From Transport Topics:

Quote:
One significant drawback to a CNG fuel system is the added weight of tanks. AJR Trucking specified tanks that hold the equivalent of 167 gallons of diesel, giving the new tractors a range of about 700 miles. The tankage adds 4,200 pounds to the weight of each tractor.

UPS also experienced a weight gain on tractors using CNG. But in addition to the 2,500-pound increase, day-cab tractors with a CNG fuel system require a second drive axle to accommodate the weight. The fleet can operate single-drive-axle tractors when liquefied natural gas (LNG) is used because that fuel system is not as heavy.

Last edited by JSH; 07-10-2020 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
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That sounds like a good place to start.
10 years ago yes. In the near future I expect to see more electric trucks doing local delivery.

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