As I Had Thought

[dann_04]

What a fun topic, but we can all try to figure out why fuel costs more and everyone will have a different idea. Same with why gasoline costs so much more. There's a thousand reasons. If you hate the epa for cleaning up diesel then i question your sanity. We have been trying to get more diesels on the road in the us and one of the main reasons we couldn't was because of how dirty they were. Now we have cleaner diesel technology that would allow those diesels to hop the pond...but our fuel was too dirty. Now it's cleaner, but it costs a little more. Aw well, at least my skin isn't melting from the rain. And you can't expect diesel to stay dirt cheap as oil becomes more expensive. Gas has gone up substantially, so has diesel. Who cares how it compares to the uk...i'm sure somehow it's apples to oranges(tax, grade, something is bound to be different). If you want things to cost the same as in europe then why aren't you getting upset and questioning why gasoline isn't 9.00 a gallon like in germany? Who cares why it costs more, lets use less or something else. Everything costs more right now anyway.

[Big Dave]

The combination of making the price of diesel fuel nearly a buck a gallon higher, reducing engine efficiency to the point that diesels barely get any more MPG than gas pigs, and making the engines be sold at a huge premium for no quantiable benefit kills the diesel in the US. This forecloses any serious efforts to increase fleet MPG. You can play your little games with duct tape on your radiator inlets forever, but that will not be as effective as having an engine that is 25-50% more efficient.

VW Jettas with gas-pig engines struggled to get more than 25 MPG. Diesel (pre-Tier II) Jettas routinely got 40. With ULSD and Tier II, that effiency is just a memory.

Yeah. I've got it in for the EPA. They slew their dragon in the 80s but they keep wrecking the country to continue justifying their existence. They are wrecking my country and I despise them for that reason.

[metroschultz]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Yeah. I've got it in for the EPA. They slew their dragon in the 80s but they keep wrecking the country to continue justifying their existence. They are wrecking my country and I despise them for that reason.

Yeah, what he said.
S.

I used to believe in the EPA, but what Ive seen and read recently has me wondering where they went off on a sideways tangent and who is steering that money pit now.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The combination of making the price of diesel fuel nearly a buck a gallon higher, reducing engine efficiency to the point that diesels barely get any more MPG than gas pigs, and making the engines be sold at a huge premium for no quantiable benefit kills the diesel in the US. This forecloses any serious efforts to increase fleet MPG. You can play your little games with duct tape on your radiator inlets forever, but that will not be as effective as having an engine that is 25-50% more efficient.

VW Jettas with gas-pig engines struggled to get more than 25 MPG. Diesel (pre-Tier II) Jettas routinely got 40. With ULSD and Tier II, that effiency is just a memory.

If the EPA had anything to do with the price of diesel I would say they are doing the rest of us a service, but I can't give them credit for that. That theory has already been debunked. But I can't help but smile at the thought that we will never have to deal with the diesel emissions nightmare that Europeans have been living under for the last 10 years.

European Diesel Decline Has Begun | The Truth About Cars

Green Car Congress: Diesel Exhaust Associated with Higher Heart Attack, Stroke Risk in Men

Diesel exhaust nanoparticles can get trapped in lungs

Roadside diesel pollution poses heart danger: study | Science & Health | Reuters

A danger that swirls in the air of Europe - International Herald Tribune

BBC NEWS | Health | Diesel pollution 'clogs arteries'

[cfg83]

RH77 -

Originally Posted by RH77

Actually, it was released just a few days ago (August 19, 2008). Check the link in my post with the picture ...

Regulatory Actions | Area Designations for 2006 Fine Particle (PM2.5) Standards | US EPA

And the map with explanations and datestamp from that page: EPA Response to State Recommendations on 2006 24-Hour PM2.5 Designations | Area Designations for 2006 24-Hour Fine Particle (PM2.5) Standards | US EPA

RH77

Thanks for the correction. I should have said the image was from a URL that had /2006standards/ in tha path.

CarloSW2

[SuperTrooper]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

VW Jettas with gas-pig engines struggled to get more than 25 MPG. Diesel (pre-Tier II) Jettas routinely got 40. With ULSD and Tier II, that effiency is just a memory.

Take a deep breath and check your facts, Dave. I'm looking at a 2009 Diesel Jetta rated at 30/41.

[tasdrouille]

Originally Posted by SuperTrooper

Take a deep breath and check your facts, Dave. I'm looking at a 2009 Diesel Jetta rated at 30/41.

Not only is it rated over 40 MPG highway, but this rating is utterly conservative. Real world fuel economy on the highway is very likely to be over 50 MPG.

[dann_04]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The combination of making the price of diesel fuel nearly a buck a gallon higher, reducing engine efficiency to the point that diesels barely get any more MPG than gas pigs, and making the engines be sold at a huge premium for no quantiable benefit kills the diesel in the US. This forecloses any serious efforts to increase fleet MPG. You can play your little games with duct tape on your radiator inlets forever, but that will not be as effective as having an engine that is 25-50% more efficient.

VW Jettas with gas-pig engines struggled to get more than 25 MPG. Diesel (pre-Tier II) Jettas routinely got 40. With ULSD and Tier II, that effiency is just a memory.

Yeah. I've got it in for the EPA. They slew their dragon in the 80s but they keep wrecking the country to continue justifying their existence. They are wrecking my country and I despise them for that reason.

If by dragon you mean pollution and emissions, you're way off. We just recently started reducing smog emissions like we should. Go to the epa, you will see that even four bangers(gas) in 2000 were putting out over 60# of smog forming emissions,now comparable cars are putting out 6# a year. That's 90% less smog and acid rain forming emissions because epa standards are becoming more strict. And we have all seen the recent reduction of co2 emissions. So don't say their job is done because the air in the cities still sucks and we're still doing more damage. Diesels were really dirty, they are getting cleaner and I'm happy for that. And i have yet to see a car model that even comes close in their rated fuel economy in gas to what they get in diesel. I think you're just using the epa as a scape goat for the side effects of cleaner diesel. Epa didn't design the engines, they just set the standards. Blame it on the car companies that Didn't take the initiative in the first place and are now making all of us pay for it. I for one don't hate the epa(i disagree with them when they do stupid things) but i like to breathe and not have lung cancer.

[Big Dave]

The bottom line for the EPA is ambient air quality. They have been measuring that since 1970. Establishing a baseline was the logical base line. The air stunk prior to 1970.

Regs began spewing out and big strides were made in ambient air quality during the 70s but the law of diminishing returns hit them hard and improvements sincw the mid-80s has been marginal. Every improvement since then has been small has come at ever-higher prices.

Literally tens of millions of US jobs have been chased offshore because of enviro-regs, and now we see the most powerful technology available for increasing MPG has been foeclosed.

The EPA is just another agency thay has done what it was put there to do but has now gone rogue to maintain its existence.

[cfg83]

dann_04 -

Originally Posted by dann_04

What a fun topic, but we can all try to figure out why fuel costs more and everyone will have a different idea. Same with why gasoline costs so much more. There's a thousand reasons. If you hate the epa for cleaning up diesel then i question your sanity. We have been trying to get more diesels on the road in the us and one of the main reasons we couldn't was because of how dirty they were. Now we have cleaner diesel technology that would allow those diesels to hop the pond...but our fuel was too dirty. Now it's cleaner, but it costs a little more. Aw well, at least my skin isn't melting from the rain. And you can't expect diesel to stay dirt cheap as oil becomes more expensive. Gas has gone up substantially, so has diesel. Who cares how it compares to the uk...i'm sure somehow it's apples to oranges(tax, grade, something is bound to be different). If you want things to cost the same as in europe then why aren't you getting upset and questioning why gasoline isn't 9.00 a gallon like in germany? Who cares why it costs more, lets use less or something else. Everything costs more right now anyway.

I think this graphic shows a good comparison :

2008 | NGK News | NGK INSULATORS, LTD.


I don't think you can argue that the US EPA is the e-vile mastermind of ULSD unless you think they control the EPA equivalents of Japan and Europe too.

Changing the subject ...

Diesel Fuel Prices: What Consumers Should Know


Energy Information Administration Brochures
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/bro...intversion.pdf

Question: From the above picture, is it true that you get about twice as many gallons of gas as diesel for every barrel of oil or .... ????

CarloSW2