I want to get to the bottom of this ethanol killing my mpg

[Frank Lee]

I hope my Fords never find out about those failures; they've been going for several years, sometimes on straight E85, and nothing has failed. Nothing.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I hope my Fords never find out about those failures; they've been going for several years, sometimes on straight E85, and nothing has failed. Nothing.

This is exactly my point, though. I've run E85 through several of my vehicles with no problems, and older ones with OE fuel pumps, at that.

I could understand a carb'd car with a mechanical fuel pump not failing, but even my EFI cars with in tank (and out of tank) pumps haven't failed.

[Frank Lee]

I forgot to note, in case anyone doesn't already know: they aren't even flex-fuel vehicles.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I forgot to note, in case anyone doesn't already know: they aren't even flex-fuel vehicles.

I think that might be obvious...

Frank, the only thing flexing in your cars is them old-ass chassis'.

[Nerys]

So frank. Do you have any suggestions on my Fuel pumps from the following vehicles ALL FAILED within 8 months of switching (by force mind you) to ethanol fuels

92 Clubwagon
88 Cherokee
88 Wagoneer
94 Lumina APV 3.1
94 Lumina APV 3.8
98 Windstar
96 Voyager

what is common to all these vehicles that would cause ALL of their fuel pumps to fail within 8-12 months (all within 6 months of each other) of switching to ethanol. NOTE in 493,000 miles I have NEVER had to change a fuel pump on the 88 cherokee. same with the 120,000 on the wagon 176,000 on the voyager 240,000 on the lumina 3.8 212,000 on the clubwagon. My father also says he can not remember ONE TIME in his life before now where he had to change a fuel pump. Its just something that does not tend to fail often.

You say water could do it. Well if water did it that means the ETHANOL did it as far as I am concerned because water was not much of a problem PRE ETHANOL (ethanol ATTRACTS WATER)

I READILY admit that it could very well be one hell of a coincidence. But logically that does not make sense (but I do admit its possible)

Its also possible that gravity works by space pushing things down. Instead of earth pulling things toward it. We really do not have a clue how or why gravity works after all.

but you get to a point where the evidence SEEMS TO SAY that ethanol is the problem.

How much evidence is needed? So your vehicles have no failed. well neither has MOST people's vehicles.

MY manager rick has a 97 Saturn and its fuel pump is so far FINE with the ethanol. Then again I put more miles on my car in a month than he does in a year.

I imagine THAT has a very large effect on the results of this. More miles means more gallons of gas means accelerated wear.

Its very well also possible your pumps are failing EXACTLY as mine have but you don't drive nearly as many miles.

How many miles do you drive a year (curiosity) and is it even amongst your 3 listed cars? for example my jeep has seen only maybe 2000 miles of driving in the last 4 months since I got my Metro.

If I am not too lazy I am going to start working on removing ethanol from some fuel tommorrow. I will need a fill up by saturday so I hope to make that an ethanol free fill up :-) I AM curious about the difference in PA and NJ gas. I got stuck in PA on E so I had to fill up at a PA wawa. (I normally wait till I am in jersey going to or from work since gas is 30+ cents cheaper a gallon over their)

that tank netted me 47.92mpg! a record for me. I am reserving judgement until I can "repeat" that but already on this tank of NJ gas the "butt feel" on the gauge says I am back to 44-45mpg again.

so one of these days I am going to get a gallon of each and ethanol test them to see if anythings different about them that way. Its probably just a fluke or he did not quite "fill" the tank all the way though it did take 9.2 gallons.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Nerys

Its also possible that gravity works by space pushing things down. Instead of earth pulling things toward it. We really do not have a clue how or why gravity works after all.1

I imagine THAT has a very large effect on the results of this. More miles means more gallons of gas means accelerated wear. 2

These are the only two points I take umbrage with at this time.

1 - Yes, we do know how grabbity works. Gravity is related to mass, which means that even air exerts gravity. Gravity is specifically a weak force related to the mass of the two objects in relation to each other. Since you are in relation to all things around you, gravity is exerted as a force between yourself and everything around you. Gravity also favors the larger objects, because there are more energized gravitons in larger or more dense objects, specifically, there are a certain number of graviton particles per mass, and since density affects the area of a mass, a more dense object will have a stronger object gravity than a larger, less dense object. This explains why the earth (very dense) has a greater pull on you than the air (invariably less dense). Both, however, do exert gravity on all things in relation to them.

Gravity is also a universal force. It affects all things in nature, regardless of distance. I don't believe on a gravity/distance line, you will ever reach a point until infinity that one object has 0 gravitational effect on another object, unless those objects are the exact mass of each other with no opposing forces diminishing their gravitational force (such as centrifugal forces).

That's the current understanding of the force of grabbity, and it has been supported and calculated by scientific method.

2 - This is kinda obvious... maybe your fuel pumps all quit because you were working them equivalent to the few years they might have lasted under normal use in the relatively short time you had them?

[Nerys]

I drove the 88 cherokee for over 10 years putting over 400,000 miles on it. IE I worked the living hell out of it.

Compare that with the almost NO MILES comparitively that I put on the clubwagon and voyager

compare that with my mom driving the lumina putting normal average miles on it

compare that with my 88 wagoneer that I don't think I put 5,000 miles on it TOTAL before yanking its engine for my 88 cherokee.

Just does not jive.

as for gravity sure poor example but "YOU GET" the idea. We really don't know why or how gravity works ie the actual MECHANISM of its function.

We suspect and evidence seems to support its related to matter and mass. ALSO we know a bit more about it today than we did even 100 years ago.

Point is its easy to say it could just be your cars it could just be a coincidence but at SOME POINT it goes beyond coincidence or just my cars.

[Christ]

I'm sorry, can we call it Grabbity? I like that name better.

[Jyden]

Originally Posted by Nerys

"usually" what happens is a NON flex vehicle gets some E10 that has a bit more E than E10 is supposed to. Kills fuel pumps "real" fast in older cars.

Even straight proper E10 kills fuel pumps over time. I am pretty well convinced the only reason this is not a "big news" problem is two fold.

#1 when it happens people never suspect the fuel
#2 people who have older cars tend to not keep them more than 4 or 5 years which is how long it can sometimes take to kill the pump. The new owner just assumes its part and parcel with buying a used car again never guesses its the fuel.

I drive a LOT more miles than most people so those time scales are accelerated for me a bit. I also keep my cars for quite a bit longer than 4 years or so.

I have replaced the fuel pump in every single gasoline powered vehicle I own since the introduction of ethanol except 2. The 74 Thing (which has never yet tasted ethanol) and my 94 Metro which I have only owned for 3 months.

The last one I replaced was the 92 Clubwagon's fuel pump (twice) this latest pump is ALREADY starting to make noise after 1 year of use. (in over a million miles of driving I have never "heard" my fuel pumps short of a tiny hard to hear whirrr on key turn sometimes. This one was PLAINLY audible in operation over the engine noise.

The new pump was silent for about 6 months but its now starting to make noise. Not as loud as the old pump but still I can hear it. I should not be able too. This tells me its likely going to fail on me in the next couple years like the past one did.

The other vehicles do not get driven enough for this to be as much a problem. We will see what happens with the metro. Though if I have my way its going to stop tasting ethanol pretty soon.

Scrap all those petrol cars. Whit all those miles you are driving you should get a diesel car. Not amarican, but european or japaneese (Toyota) and you would save a LOT of money....

Just my 2 cents

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Nerys

So frank. Do you have any suggestions on my Fuel pumps from the following vehicles ALL FAILED within 8 months of switching (by force mind you) to ethanol fuels

92 Clubwagon
88 Cherokee
88 Wagoneer
94 Lumina APV 3.1
94 Lumina APV 3.8
98 Windstar
96 Voyager

what is common to all these vehicles that would cause ALL of their fuel pumps to fail within 8-12 months (all within 6 months of each other) of switching to ethanol. NOTE in 493,000 miles I have NEVER had to change a fuel pump on the 88 cherokee. same with the 120,000 on the wagon 176,000 on the voyager 240,000 on the lumina 3.8 212,000 on the clubwagon. My father also says he can not remember ONE TIME in his life before now where he had to change a fuel pump. Its just something that does not tend to fail often.

You say water could do it. Well if water did it that means the ETHANOL did it as far as I am concerned because water was not much of a problem PRE ETHANOL (ethanol ATTRACTS WATER)

I READILY admit that it could very well be one hell of a coincidence. But logically that does not make sense (but I do admit its possible)

Its also possible that gravity works by space pushing things down. Instead of earth pulling things toward it. We really do not have a clue how or why gravity works after all.

but you get to a point where the evidence SEEMS TO SAY that ethanol is the problem.

How much evidence is needed? So your vehicles have no failed. well neither has MOST people's vehicles.

MY manager rick has a 97 Saturn and its fuel pump is so far FINE with the ethanol. Then again I put more miles on my car in a month than he does in a year.

I imagine THAT has a very large effect on the results of this. More miles means more gallons of gas means accelerated wear.

Its very well also possible your pumps are failing EXACTLY as mine have but you don't drive nearly as many miles.

How many miles do you drive a year (curiosity) and is it even amongst your 3 listed cars? for example my jeep has seen only maybe 2000 miles of driving in the last 4 months since I got my Metro.

If I am not too lazy I am going to start working on removing ethanol from some fuel tommorrow. I will need a fill up by saturday so I hope to make that an ethanol free fill up :-) I AM curious about the difference in PA and NJ gas. I got stuck in PA on E so I had to fill up at a PA wawa. (I normally wait till I am in jersey going to or from work since gas is 30+ cents cheaper a gallon over their)

that tank netted me 47.92mpg! a record for me. I am reserving judgement until I can "repeat" that but already on this tank of NJ gas the "butt feel" on the gauge says I am back to 44-45mpg again.

so one of these days I am going to get a gallon of each and ethanol test them to see if anythings different about them that way. Its probably just a fluke or he did not quite "fill" the tank all the way though it did take 9.2 gallons.

This is odd. If the fuel is causing the problem I would think it would have to be local in nature. To many people using it without problems. Even if you're driving tons of miles in a year eventually those that don't would catch up and there would be a rash pumps failure.

You probably done this but do you get the gas at the same place, run your tank until the fuel light come on, and who is replacing the pumps when they fail? Any unusual additives added to try to bump the mileage?