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Old 02-02-2014, 06:28 PM   #161 (permalink)
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A agree, Brucey. Just the challenge.

Last night I came home & told the other half I got 57.3 mpg on the last tank - and had an all time longest distance tank (656 miles), and she's like "ho, hum". Well, I'm STILL excited about it, regardless!!

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Old 02-02-2014, 09:18 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Yeah, guess you guys read the update? I was a little turned of by their choice of donuts they ate and squeezed to make white frosting shoot out the end in the article. Seemed they maintained 60+ mpg, but their article too got off track.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:16 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:59 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Long post alert

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucey View Post
I always thought car mods were kind of interesting in so far as cost associated....

..."Uhhh, that's weird. Why didn't you just buy a Prius?"
Ya, heard all of that. If you look at my car list, it looks like you've been stalking me. Building for mpg is a different skill set, and rounds out your automotive knowledge. Plus, having a fast car(s) makes driving an eco car a choice, not a mandate. It's hard to pick on a guy with a car that can blow your doors off for driving a metro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgfpro View Post
On my last two Honda's I ran Neptune with a P28 ecu. I used a modified
PLX 300 wideband controller with a NGK O2 sensor. You can run a AFX controller also with Neptune that is NGK wide-band user friendly.

With Neptune you can turn the check engine light into a shift light also.
The EGR could be controlled by the Neptune also.
There are a lot of input/output user defined applications with Neptune also.
The downside is a PO7 ecu won't work with Neptune.

I never ran my Honda's in closed loop. I found you can run much cleaner with open loop verse closed loop at very-lean burn. I don't even understand why Import Tuner choose to run in closed loop??? A good tuned map with low extrapolated outer cell values is always a better way to go. IMO

The next best thing IMO would be a Motech system. But now were talking $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hmm, I'll look into neptune then. Thank you. The problem with most, is the market is for performance, not mpg. This means items like EGR, and vapor purge are not included. Even if the ECM can control it, the software, support, and knowledge to do so, is not.

I had ran a NGK on my megasquirt build. That was waaaay back in the day where it was one of the only WB's out there. So long ago, that I had to put together my own IC board for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slownugly View Post
Elaborate more on that. Do you mean the ecu Puts the throttle blade a WOT and cuts injector pulse instead of closed throttle blade? 80s ford fuel injection theory used that but for safety not efficiency. Of course that was direct linkage.
Thank you for that, I learned something new.

Yes, if injector pulse is 0, the electronic throttle would go to WOT to reduce engine braking. My car does this currently (cuts injector pulse on decel), but if the throttle is opened, it will read it as demand, and turns the injectors back on. I have drawn up a schematic for a bypass using the existing ECU (using two simple DPDT relays), and a microswitch. This uses a secondary air valve, ported to the HAI (to reduce heat loss). An integrated solution would be faster, cleaner, and more reliable though.

Yes the general concept of a HAI is to reduce displacement. The current system is limited by the ecu enrichment when the IAT reads too hot. The current working design is thermal vacuum regulated, and is decent. A full regenerator setup would be better (see Chrysler turbine regenerator, et al). Basic concept would be two large diesel egr coolers and a water pump. Place one cooler aft the Catalytic convertor, and the other in the intake path.
The benefits of this over a variable displacement would be:
  • 1) Can be added on to existing vehicles easily
  • 2) Is able to be more proportional to power demanded (rather than on/off)
  • 3) Keep velocities up within the system (since you're changing densities within the manifolds, instead of flow)
  • 4) Improved Static vs. Dynamic compression ratios.

My ideal system would include the following components (in order of flow):

1) HAI (hot air intake) from exterior of exhaust manifold
Purpose: Cold start heat, and DFCO heat retention
Note: Needs either airflow control to provide acceptable high load power. (Current design is for Thermal vacuum)

2) WAI (water air intercooler) tied to coolant system
Purpose:
  • 1) heat coolant in cold start (via HAI)
  • 2) remove heat from coolant when warm to permit more grill blocking
  • 3) decrease air density. Resulting in an increased throttle plate angle and decreased pumping losses (and increased port velocities).
Note:
  • 1)Needs either airflow or coolant flow control to provide acceptable high load power. (Current design is for heater style valve, controlled by auxiliary cable on TB)
  • 2) Has been done in the past using heater cores in the air box. Using this method provides for stable intake temperatures providing the BTU's from the exchanger are sufficient since the car's cooling system regulates the maximum coolant temperature.

3) Regenerators. Repurposed HD diesel egr coolers. One in intake, one in exhaust.
Purpose: Increase the effects of 2:3, while using 2:2 to control engine temp.
Note:
  • 1) Requires secondary cooling system (ideally)
  • 2) Needs either airflow or coolant flow control to provide acceptable high load power. (In progress)
  • 3) Could allow weight offset by elimination of one of the mufflers.
  • 4) After Catalytic converter to maintain converter heat and emissions compliance (not like it matters here).


4) Dual Electronic throttle body. (or Throttle bypass if ETB isn't possible).
Purpose:
  • 1)To provide the drive a linear feel of a throttle opening, without moving much.
  • 2)To go to WOT on DFCO to reduce engine braking in short bursts where EOC isn't practical or driver is a novice. (this should include the ECM going into full heat retention mode, full heat from HAI and regenerators)
  • Note: A bypass (electric solenoid, off d/s of intake or TB spacer) would probably work fine here, If linear "feel" could be accomplished through other means.

Potential Problems:
  • 1) Coolant flow adjustment might be slow to react, reducing power until internal temps decrease. Once cool and light load: Would be small lapse until efficiency is regained. A better (but more complicated) solution would be airflow direction.
  • 2) Total system weight is about 100lbs (with coolant)
  • 3) Vacuum leaks with a throttle bypass.
  • 4) Increased electrical load with secondary water pump in regenerator
  • 5) System pressure in regenerator system.
  • 6) Intake heat could harm components
  • 7) Without a custom ECU (ECM) the computer will "freak out", throwing codes or more fuel. A 220K (?) ohm resistor in IAT might reduce, but far from ideal or fixed.
  • 8) Pre-detonation.
  • 9) Exhaust velocities are backwards (pull heat at light load).
  • 10) Limited experience, references, software, and information to draw from.
  • 11) Vacuum leaks
  • 12) General messing up a perfectly good DD by fixing something that wasn't wrong.
  • 13*) ****Time!!!
  • 14) troubleshooting nightmare
  • 15) Existing p07 might react poorly to the changes in vacuum.


Areas to research:
  • 1) Renerators
  • 2) Auto ignition
  • 3) Stand alone automatic climate control
  • 4) Stand alone ECM with canister purge, COP (coil on plug) and too many outputs.
  • 5) EGR system piggy back
  • 6) Vacuum system controls (most info is positive pressure, where vent to atmosphere is possible, might work in reverse).


Probably needs its own thread, but I wasn't planning on posting until I had time to complete stages 1 and 2. I have the parts, but not the time. I will post on it's own at that time. For now, this is just a cliff's notes version.

So neptune eh?
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The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Superfuelgero For This Useful Post:
brucey (02-04-2014), California98Civic (02-04-2014), MetroMPG (02-04-2014), pgfpro (02-03-2014), slownugly (02-04-2014)
Old 02-03-2014, 11:21 PM   #165 (permalink)
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xntrx, that has to be the most refreshing post I have ever seen on ecomodder!!!

Brilliant just Brilliant!!!

You need to start another thread on your ideas!!! You have a lot of thought into these ideas and I commend you to go after them.

You have got me thinking, and I thank you for it.
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Last edited by pgfpro; 02-03-2014 at 11:31 PM..
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:07 AM   #166 (permalink)
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Yea, definitely a new thread for that one! Awesome idea.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:29 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrx View Post
[*] 2)To go to WOT on DFCO to reduce engine braking in short bursts where EOC isn't practical or driver is a novice. (this should include the ECM going into full heat retention mode, full heat from HAI and regenerators)
I've tried this principle (in my Jeep), with the engine off (at the key), openning the throttle to WOT, and all I get is massive engine braking (along with a roaring sound!). I think more air being sucked into the engine means more pumping losses. I know my Fiat with no throttle plate has zero engine braking though.

What's going on?
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:56 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Quote:
13*) ****Time!!!
Ha! Always the issue, isn't it?

Looking forward to a dedicated thread. Please update here when you do.
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:53 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Nice read! Looking forward to the next part.
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:26 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post
I've tried this principle (in my Jeep), with the engine off (at the key), openning the throttle to WOT, and all I get is massive engine braking (along with a roaring sound!). I think more air being sucked into the engine means more pumping losses. I know my Fiat with no throttle plate has zero engine braking though.

What's going on?
I think the roaring sound is tricking you into thinking engine braking has increased. Engine off coasting at WOT reduces engine braking. Always has, always will. The roaring sound is your exhaust - now that the engine has something to pump, something comes out of the tail pipe again.

Remember when the engine is off, compressing a full cylinder of air is like compressing a giant spring. So all the effort required on the compression stroke is returned on the [ex] power stroke when this giant spring pushes back down, resulting in a net power consumption of zero. Minus friction, heat, etc.

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